Free from the box!

Lord, have mercy!

2011-04-12T11:28:00.006-04:00

Click to watch Youtube video

You have to see the above video by Jack Schaap who is responding to some of the clips of his preaching shown on the recent 20/20 exposé of the IFB. He defends himself as if he were proclaiming the Gospel in those clips instead of simply being an idiot. I honestly want to cry as I watch this clip. I am reminded of the ongoing struggle in my own life to unlearn all of the bologna I learned sitting under men like this most of my life. I am so grieved over how quickly I can still come across in an arrogant manner and take stands in ungracious ways. The astute reader will be able to see traces of that even in past postings on this blog. My heart is grieved over the way that thinking like this STILL affects my marriage and my relationship to my wife even though I have been detoxing for many years. I am saddened that so many young preachers are looking up to fools such as this man and learning to be arrogant and un-Christlike and pretend that they are doing so as Champions of the truth. I am perplexed as to why my alma matter is having this guy come in and preach on a regular basis now. I am sickened by the silence within the ranks. This man should have thousands of IFB preachers calling him and encouraging him to repent! Any IFB pastor that openly fellowships with this man without calling him to repentance is a disgrace to his calling. He is openly and clearly unqualified to be an elder by Biblical definitions.

For those wondering, I am not an egalitarian. I do believe the Bible teaches there are roles for men and women. What this guy is screaming about, however, does not represent my beliefs or the teachings of scripture. The saddest thing of all is the admitted and blatant arrogance.

Truly ashamed of my past and very grateful for the grace of God,
Tony

Bible College??

2011-01-10T14:09:00.004-05:00

My eight year old son said something very interesting (and pretty funny) last night at the dinner table. In the course of a fairly normal conversation he told my wife that he probably knew more than she did. My wife and I looked at each other and then she replied "Why's that?". Then he gave an amazing answer: "Because you went to Bible college, so you probably didn't learn math.". We laughed pretty hard, but inside I wondered how accurate he actually was when it came to his assessment of Bible college (not my wife). There are many Bible colleges out there that offer quality education and accreditation that are very useful in life, unfortunately, there are many that do not. Let's take a look at some of the major red flags when considering a Bible College...

1. Is it accredited?

This one is important. This means that the institution will ensure a basic level of quality education for the student. It is a system of accountability that is recognized and in many cases necessary for your degree to be considered legitimate.

Example: My wife has her secondary education degree from an unaccredited IFB college. She cannot even substitute teach in the state of Oregon with that degree. It's pretty much worthless outside of some Christian schools.

Here's a good article that helps answer some questions about the importance of accreditation.

2. Is it connected with a particular church?

If this is the case, then you are on the path toward indoctrination and not education. The goal of that church is to make you a nice fit into that church. You are going to be taught the in's and out's of how to reproduce yourself into that particular brand and not taught the benefits of critical thinking and genuine leadership. You will become robotically them instead of having the capacity and encouragement to be uniquely you.

3. Where did the professors get their degrees?

Before you decide on a particular school, look up the professors and see where they were educated. If they all graduated from the same school or type of school then you are, again, on the path toward indoctrination. If they come from various backgrounds then the chances for quality education are increased. You will be frustrated by some, but you will learn to think and you will grow along the way. This is a good thing.

**If they all graduated from the same institution for which they now teach, run away!**

There are many more (and maybe you would like to add your thoughts in the comments), but these three will knock out most independent baptist colleges from consideration. You may have to pay a little more for a quality education that actually means something outside of the IFB world, but it's far better than saving a little money to get your indoctrination papers that mean very little to real world employers.

Most IFB colleges were started because many of the students that they sent off to real colleges weren't coming back IFB (or their particular brand of IFB). Think about it....

Think. Love. Live.

I pledge allegiance....

2011-01-04T01:00:00.002-05:00

A Revealing Backfire

2010-12-13T13:50:00.006-05:00

Just thought this was interesting from the "Noteworthy News Notes" section of the SOTL Nov. 26, 2010 ed. (pg. 4)...

Updated NIV Bible Text Released

The release of the text comes after years of rigorous translation work by the Committee on Bible Translation (CBT). The members of the committee represent the very best in evangelical biblical scholarship. Its members are drawn from various denominations and from some of the finest academic institutions in the world. The CBT solicited and received input from scholars, pastors, missionaries and lay persons and reviewed every proposal, many of which led to revisions to the text.

"It has been a monumental undertaking to update the NIV..." said CBT Chair, Professor Douglas Moo. "We have invested countless hours of study and debate in pursuit of this vision, and we are delighted with the result. With this update, we believe the NIV continues to represent the optimum combination of transparency to the original documents and comprehensibility for the broad audience we serve."

- Christian Newswire

Sounds pretty good right?? I'm personally very interested in getting the new NIV and I couldn't believe this article was in the Sword of the Lord...then I read the 'Editor's Comments'...

Editor's Comments: They keep trying to get it right, but they admit that they have an agenda for continuing to tinker with it as the years go by. Sorry, fellas, we're still not buying!

The article the Sword chose was a brilliant plug for the new NIV! As a Christian who is concerned with thorough scholarship, cross-denominational unity of the body of Christ, and well thought out reasoning; I'm loving what I'm reading. Then, in bold letters, here comes the deflating, accusing, and arrogant retort that is totally devoid of any of the above. What a revealing backfire.

Glaring Inconsistencies

2010-12-10T14:13:00.004-05:00

For reasons which I cannot explain, I have been receiving both Revival Fires and The Sword of the Lord newspapers for several months. For those of you who are unfamiliar with these two publications, they are published by two different 'camps' in the Independent Fundamental Baptist movement on a monthly basis. I can only assume that someone who has been privy to my ascent out of the IFB denomination is getting me these in an attempt to win me back to the movement. I can assure you, whoever you may be, that it has quite the opposite effect.

There are always fun things to read when we receive these in the mail. One time there was a sermon that was built around the assumption that all evil comes from the west because the sun sets in the west (who knew?). There are also interesting sections of the newspapers such as 'NOT FOR LADIES (Just for Men)' emphasis theirs and 'Helps for the Helpmeet'. These probably deserve their own blog post so we'll just leave those alone for now.

This months Sword of the Lord (Vol. LXXVI No. 24 - Nov. 26, 2010) was especially interesting to me. They have been running (for seven months now) an ongoing article entitled "The Case Against Calvinism" where they have attempted to build a, you guessed it, case against Calvinism. They have disparaged the character of John Calvin, written how all five points of the so-called TULIP are evil and claimed that all Calvinists hate evangelism with a burning passion. The problem isn't that they are against what they call Calvinism, because there are many Christians who hold to that way of thinking, the problem is in their amazing inconsistency. In this months issue in the bottom right hand corner of the front page is the seventh installment of their 'Case Against Calvinism'. Fine. It's what's in the upper left hand corner of the front page that is so disturbing. Directly diagonal from their seventh installment of 'The Case Against Calvinism' is a sermon entitled 'Only Trust Him' by none other that Charles H. Spurgeon. AMAZING! I wonder why they didn't publish Spurgeon's sermon entitled 'A Defense of Calvinism' instead? You see, Spurgeon was an unashamed Calvinist. Here are some quotes if you have any doubts, "It is no novelty, then, that I am preaching; no new doctrine. I love to proclaim these strong old doctrines that are called by nickname Calvinism, but which are truly and verily the revealed truth of God as it is in Christ Jesus." (Spurgeon's Sovereign Grace Sermons, Still Waters Revival Books, p. 170). And, "Calvinism did not spring from Calvin. We believe that it sprang from the great Founder of all truth." (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 7, p. 298). There is no legitimate denying that Charles Spurgeon was, in fact, a full-on five point Calvinist and he made no bones about it.

What is the big deal? Nothing, other than the fact that the SOTL has spent the last seven months building their case against calvinism (which is fine) only to publish one of the more outspoken calvinists of the 19th century on the same front page as the seventh installment. It is this kind of glaring inconsistency that is prevalent in this separatist movement, but rarely if ever called out within the movement itself because of blind faith in the so-called man of God, or for fear of the consequences of asking questions. It is glaring inconsistencies such as this one that takes these publications (and the IFB movement itself) from simply being arrogant and isolationist to being not credible with anyone outside of the four walls of their denomination.

1+1 never equals 3. No matter how much you print it, or how loud you yell it from a pulpit.

Think. Love. Live.

Trevor W.

The Hymn of the Legalist

2010-09-09T10:59:00.002-04:00

The following Hymn, written by Stephen Altrogge is simply too good not to reproduce here!

Jesus Paid It Some

I hear the Savior say,
“You’re not doing enough;
Work your fingers to the bone,
I will save those who are tough.”

Jesus paid it some
I will do the rest
Sin had left a crimson stain
Now I will give my best

For now indeed I’ll try
To earn your love and grace
I’ll add the works I have
To complete the price you paid.

REFRAIN

And when before the throne
I’ll give my deeds to you,
I’ll hope I’ve done enough
To make you let me through.

REFRAIN (3x just to be sure)

http://www.theblazingcenter.com/2010/09/the-hymn-of-the-legalist.html

A True Hero

2010-07-24T13:28:00.004-04:00

Heroes in the movement I grew up in all pastored big churches (or preached at the big churches) and became their own brand through preaching style, books authored (most of them very shallow and seemingly only written to fill the “I’m important so I must write a book” requirement), or by starting their own Bible college. These were the men you dreamed of being, the men you stood in line for to have them sign your Bible (this memory in particular makes me want to cry), the men who defined success as numbers. I am not writing to slam these men; I’m sure some of them have been sincere – though most were clearly arrogant and drunk on their own self-importance. I am writing with a burning contrast that in my mind demonstrates true greatness.

Yesterday morning, I stood at the graveside of Charles Longnecker. Who? That’s right, you never heard of him or saw him in the limelight. He never preached in a national conference; he never had hundreds of preacher boys acting like giggling girls waiting for his signature in their Bibles. He wasn’t cheered on a big platform, or revered for his pulpiteering abilities. It struck me as I listened to the testimonies of people who experienced his ministry, as I observed ten of his 13 children (one was greeting him in heaven) and over 100 grandchildren and great-grandchildren, that I was seeing true greatness. As we heard entries from his journal in which he was raw and real and humble with his Maker until his dying day, my eyes filled with tears realizing that this man was a hero. No, he wasn’t slick and quick with a superficial smile; he loved his Lord, loved his wife and children, and poured out his life in the service of others.

Let me give some observations before I give his obituary.

He was a humble man. He didn’t pretend to be a humble man. He was. I remember him coming to visit us in Vineland. I remember him treating an arrogant know-it-all young preacher with all of the respect and dignity in the world, even as I’m sure he saw huge areas of concern in my emphasis and ministry. I remember his gentle encouragement to love my wife and children. I remember, to my shame, hoping he’d be impressed with “my ministry” and never fully realizing the great man who listened to my clueless preaching as he nodded affirmation. In fact, I’m sure I didn’t see more than a small town pastor and missionary who happened to be a very nice man and grandfather. Oh to have him back in our church and honor him as the great man he was!

He loved his family and never put ministry above them. What an awesome thing to hear his children share the many ways in which they knew they were treasured and loved by their father. What a wonderful thing to watch personally over the years the love between himself and his precious bride, Dorothy. As I looked around me and saw the family, I realized this man was a hero in ways that ______________ ________________ could never dream of being. (Fill in your own blank, I have dozens of names that could go there). Nothing else matters at the end.

He avoided the excesses of his generation and exemplified balance. He didn’t compromise truth, yet he wasn’t rampaging about side issues. He kept it simple and focused on Christ. He wasn’t hung up on stuff. He knew what he believed, yet he had a meek spirit and knew to treasure the common bond in Christ. This is pretty intensely personal for me. I looked around me and saw the son and daughter who are part of a Pentecostal church (I was secretly saying… man, if they’ll raise their hands I’ll join ‘em!). I talked to the granddaughter who is worshiping and growing in a Presbyterian congregation. I listened to the uncle who is part of an ELCA church sing about the blood of Christ. I peeked over my shoulder at the “reformed” section of the family and then over at the quasi-Armenians and saw UNITY. There were non-denominationals, Baptists, CMA… all CHRIST LOVERS. None were black sheep. All were loved and treasured by a father who chose to show them the love of Christ instead of the love of argument. What could have been the recipe for factionalism and division in the family has only served to strengthen and unite. This is not possible amongst petty minded “heroes.” Only a true hero can have the patience and graciousness to pull this off. While other were burning bridges and screaming “compromise,” Charles Longnecker was busy loving Christ and loving his family to Christ. Other families may have more “doctrinal purity;” I am honored to, by marriage, belong to the Longnecker family.

He finished well. He never made a splash; he just ran his race. He finished his course! He left an incredible heritage and legacy, and he blazed a trail worth following. He’s a hero the only place it matters! He heard his Master say, “Well done!”

So passed Charles Longnecker. A giant among boys. May the name of Christ be praised!

What follows is the obituary of my hero.

Rev. Charles A. Longnecker (May 13, 1926-July 17, 2010) passed away Saturday at his Knoxville, Tennessee, home. He was 84. He was born in Chicago, Illinois. He was a son of Robert D. and Margaret (Osbold) Longnecker.

Rev. Longnecker served as a missionary pastor with the American Sunday School Union in Wisconsin for 7 years. He then joined the American Mission for Opening Churches (AMOC), and served for 28 years. During this time he pastored two village congregations in rural New York for 7 years, after which he pastored at White's Church, Peacock Corners, and Faith Bible Church, between Lightstreet and Orangeville, for 7 years. He then founded Bible Baptist Church with the objective of teaching the Bible based on Biblical principles. The church met in a former bakery on Everitt Street, Benton, before relocating to a Benton Township location on Route 239 in 1978. Rev. Longnecker served that church for 13 years. From Benton, he and his wife traveled to Kenya as missionaries with CHRISTAR Ministries (formerly International Missions) for 7 years. He was in the ministry from 1952 until 1995 when he retired. He was currently a member of West Park Baptist Church, Knoxville, Tennessee.

He and his wife, Dorothy M. (Ewing) Longnecker, would have celebrated their 64th wedding anniversary on August 10. Surviving, in addition to Mrs. Longnecker, are his sons and daughters-in-law: Mark and Nancy, Daniel and Cheryll, Timothy and Deborah, Joel, Nathan, Eric and Maureen; daughters and sons-in-law: Linda and David Duke, Virginia and Kermit Minnick, Jan and Daniel Belles; Grace and Robert Henrie; Sharon and Robert Wittke; Patti and James Pollock; Jill and Mark Carson; 34 grandchildren and 38 great grandchildren; brother and sister-in-law, Herbert and Wanda Longnecker; and sister-in-law, Joyce Longnecker.

He was preceded in death by brother, Fred Longnecker, and daughter, Gail (Longnecker) Belles.

Hidden in Him

Tony

Dogmaticism

2010-07-19T13:21:00.004-04:00

This is certainly a topic that I find a very difficult one to grapple with. I couldn’t disagree more profoundly with today’s “Humble Hermeneutic” theologians who will not take a stand on anything. Everything is up for “discussion” and being “re-imagined.”

You’re not sure you like the idea of “substitutionary atonement?” Well, what does the cross mean to you?

This approach to Scripture and absolute truth is blasphemous and stupid. There are clearly truths taught in Scripture that are beyond dispute. There ARE absolutes! Sola Scriptura is chief among them. The inspired word of God IS our standard!

On the other hand, I am often troubled by the extremely dogmatic stands taken by many I admire in areas that simply are NOT that clear in scripture. My current example is the dogmaticism with which many hold to the idea of “cessationism.”

I will be the first to admit that you could build a strong and logical case that the purpose of the “sign gifts” has been fulfilled, and that they are no longer in use in the church today. I have come to the place where I would humbly disagree with that argument, but I would respect your right to make it. I think a clearer and more logical argument could be made that outweighs it, but that is not the point.

I am thinking here of the well-intentioned individual who will run to I Corinthians 13 and dogmatically tell us (without any contextual evidence) that it is crystal clear that “that which is perfect” is the Bible and therefore tongues and prophecies have ceased. Most who make this argument don’t merely suggest this as a possibility, rather they rest their case on this strained interpretation of this passage. In a recent friendly exchange on this topic on an online forum I received a private message in which I was kindly informed that I was in over my head. Nothing else was provided. Basically…. “this is the only possible interpretation, sit down and be quiet.” What saddens me is that the individual taking this dogmatic position is someone who has escaped the “box” in many other areas. That scares me! I want to stand STRONGLY for clear truth! I also want to make sure that I don’t read my preferences into the text. There are some areas where dogmaticism IS unwarranted, and where instead we should make our best argument without forcing Scripture to dogmatically say what it in fact may not be saying.

How do we strike a correct balance in this? The only answer I know is much prayer, the leading of the Holy Spirit and the careful, exegetical and consistent application of a sound heremeneutic… which of course brings us to another topic…

Isn’t it about time everyone adopted my heremeneutic? :)

Hidden in Him

Tony

One Million in 24 hours? Why not!!

2009-09-28T10:01:00.003-04:00

Ok, so we talked about the left for a post there, the lunatic right quickly draws us back. I don't want to be harsh, but there are some times when you have to call a spade a spade. The youth group of First Baptist Church in Hammond wants you to join in and help reach 1,000,000 souls in 24 hours. No, it's not a sad joke! You can register here and be a part of this historic occasion. Honestly, I'm tempted to echo what I said in my last post and say that these guys aren't on my team either. Can you imagine for one moment how many people will be pushed to repeat a prayer, then be told they're going to heaven after hearing a watered down "gospel" presentation? You can't make this stuff up! I will go on record and say, without a doubt more harm will be done than good on this date. WAY more harm. There may be a few, who by God's grace, in spite of the crazy method, do in fact come to Christ, but the vast majority will be 10 times more the children of hell. Lord, please forgive us!!!

I'm sorry, this stuff just burns me up!!! While I'm at it, I am SICK AND TIRED of hearing reports from Hispanic countries of hundreds repeating prayers after some public presentation of the gospel. (Sorry for the rant!) News flash!!! Catholics repeat prayers!!! That's what they do!!! All of the time!!!!!!! I grew up among these people! I AM ONE!!! DO NOT TELL ME you preached in a public school or public place and hundreds raised their hands that they accepted Christ by repeating your prayer. If you do, you are unwittingly an enemy of the Gospel!!! Thank you very much, but my dear Hispanic brothers and sisters do not need that type of evangelism. Please keep that to inflate your numbers here!!! You want 100 hispanic "conversions?" Easy as pie. Get me 100 hispanic people together and I will get them to repeat a prayer, with a much clearer Gospel presentation than you are giving. I fear God, however, and would do no such thing! Oh, I'll present the Gospel, but I'll leave those manipulative closing the deal, ignorant tactics at home.

I know I'm venting, but few things make me as sick as easy-believism. It is the bane of our movement. We must stop NOW!!!

Book recommendation... "Hard to Believe" by John MaCarthur

Hidden in Him!
Tony

Danger on the Left

2009-08-04T23:43:00.003-04:00

Shane Clairborne - NOT my team mate!

This blog as a whole is focused on a journey from legalism to grace, therefore of necessity deals with the background that we have lived and that we have transitioned from. I am grateful for having been taught the Word of God as a child and for the many wonderful, Christ-loving people along the way. I am VERY concerned about the cheapening of the Gospel, the legalism, the one two three, repeat after me, no Lordship and no repentance mess that has decimated the heart of Christianity, but that has been covered in many posts. I want to spend a little time today speaking about the other side. To every one of us who have come out of legalism, there is the very real danger of swinging all the way over to antinomianism and a “cheap grace.” I believe this is just as dangerous, if not more than what we left. I have hinted at this in past posts and will amplify on it more in the future.

What really has me a little upset right now are some serious challenges to the Gospel and absolute truth on the left flank of Evangelicalism. I’m not talking about the clueless buffoons in the prosperity Gospel. Their “pimping” of Jesus and shallowness is appalling and is worth it’s own post. Joel Osteen and his crowd are not my target today. I am really worked up about the emerging church movement and Gospel deniers such as Rob Bell, Brian Mcleran, Tony Campolo, Shane Clairborne, and my list could go on for a while. Give me a King James worshipper over these fools any day. May this post put to rest the accusations we sometimes get that we ignore the shenanigans in Evangelicalism. These men are changing the Gospel, and I have NO qualms calling their names and calling them heretics. I am SICK and tired of people who love Christ admiring these men. We are NOT on the same team!!! They are promoting a “Universalist” mentality that the Gospel completely contradicts!!!

I renounce some of the crazy battles of my past! I will not fight over pants on women, style of music, the length of a woman’s hair or communion with wine or grape juice. I have no desire to be embroiled with fights in minor areas with my fellow believers. I can even choose to look past bigger disagreements such as eschatology, spiritual gifts, church government, mode of Baptism, etc. This, however is a man who will roll up his sleeves and FIGHT for the Gospel!!! The truth that all men are sinners and rightfully condemned for their sins (not societal injustices, but individual sin against God) is a truth I WILL fight for! The truth that Jesus Christ, God incarnate, born of a virgin died a substitutionary death on the cross atoning for the sins of all who believe is a truth I WILL fight for! I will NOT let you change the Gospel into righting society and feeding the poor! You will not use middle class guilt and self-righteous appeals to selected, out of context Biblical texts to change the Gospel on this preacher!!!

Let it be clearly said, the danger presented to the truth of the Gospel by pious and humble sounding Gospel deniers like Shane Clairborne is 10 times greater than any of the stupidities of my former movement. This is one preacher who in throwing off some of the unbalanced nonsense of my past refuses to accept the redefining of the Gospel that is all the rage with the “New Monastics” and the “Emerging Church!” They can crawl right back into the hole they emerged from as far as I’m concerned!

Let the record show, I am out of the box, but I’m not jumping into the cesspool!

Hidden in Him,

Tony

The Sin of Denominational Pride

2009-06-05T11:22:00.005-04:00

Ok, I want to be very careful here, so let me start with a disclaimer. I am not against anyone who considers themselves a part of a denomination. I am not against being convinced of certain distinctions or taking a stand based on convictions. If you consider yourself a Baptist, Presby, CMA, whatever, and have your reasons for that association, my beef is NOT with you. I am writing specifically about the need of some to trumpet our “roots” in what seems to me a prideful and non Christ-like spirit.

I have decided not to highlight publications to keep this post from seeming like an attack on an institution or person, which it is not. However, I have recently read articles and been directed to websites that are dedicated to trumpeting the idea that we as “Baptists” are the real deal. You won’t need to look far to find a ton of this material. We were never part of the Catholic church “bless Gawd,” we aren’t Protestants, we ALWAYS stood against error! Do we even think through what we say? First of all, we didn’t do jack squat. We have been saved by the grace of God!!! We deserve to be in hell! We somehow have something to boast in because someone somewhere supposedly stood for truth? Lord, have mercy! There is in statements like this a thinly veiled disdain for these “lowly Protestants” who were foolish enough to be a part of the Great Harlot and who “prostituted” themselves with her while we have remained pure (and humble.) Those poor “Protestants,” they’re the red-headed step-children in the family of God. If they only would have had it together like us “Baptists.” Do I need to continue with the sarcasm to show the sheer stupidity of such statements? Of course, Baptist “martyrs” are to be held in higher esteem than run of the mill martyrs who died for Christ. Let me get this straight… do we really think there is more than one team? For crying out loud! NONSENSE!!!!

For the sake of argument here, let’s take for granted that the whole “Trail of Blood” thing has validity (and I do NOT concede that.) How stupid to think that somehow the actions of people hundreds of years ago should be something for me to boast about. The “Johny come latelys” to the truth aren’t as special or important. We need to continually remind ourselves and others that we Baptists are “special.” I think you get the point. It’s sick! It’s wicked, that’s what it is!

Galatians 6:14
But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

I Corinthians 3:3-9
3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? 4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not being merely human?
5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building.

“It’s not about pride, Tony, it’s about honoring what these people lived and died for…”
Really? Let me be honest. If any of them died for the sake of the word “Baptist” or a denomination, they are unworthy of honor in the first place. If they died for Christ, then HE deserves the glory, not a denomination.

This has been percolating in my heart for a while now. I think these attitudes are wicked. I think it makes God sick!!! He isn’t building one church and a whole bunch of other sub-churches, he is building ONE body! It’s not about my denominational name; it’s about HIS name!

Final disclaimer… I am NOT advocating INTER-DENOMINATIONALISM or the idea of setting aside truth for the sake of unity. I have NO problem however with a mentality that is very non denominational. We stand for truth, but we do so humbly, without a feeling of superiority and without the need to constantly be highlighting great “Baptists” of the past, as opposed to a great Savior!!!

Hidden in Him!
Tony!

Dr. Master's Priorities -- ok...

2009-03-11T23:28:00.004-04:00

Ok, I’m completely perplexed! I’ve seen and read it all now. I do not seek to be ugly in this post, perhaps someone can explain this to me. I just looked over this month’s copy of my Alma Matter’s publication, The Baptist Vision, and had a couple of things jump out at me. One, is that Peter Masters, the Calvinist Pastor of the Metropolitan Tabernacle is listed as an Editor of the Baptist Vision. That’s cool, I can handle that, in fact I can applaud the fact that brethren can choose to agree to disagree and still seek to honor Christ. I happen to know that Calvinist leaning students at Crown aren’t treated with the same deference reserved for Dr. Masters. Recently, it has been affirmed again at Crown that Calvinism is not a welcome teaching, which is obviously their prerogative. Again, this begs the question of what Dr. Masters is doing as an editor of the Baptist Vision, but that is really not the point of this post.

On page 9 of the Baptist Vision Dr. Masters has some comments on Spurgeon’s sermon on “The present financial crisis.” Allow me to reproduce his final paragraph.

“A parallel spiritual situation is the policy of many evangelical (and reformed) leaders who are building churches on a foundation of entertainment, contemporary worship and worldly lifestyles. The reputations of such churches (including reformed mega-churches in the USA) will collapse horribly in the coming years, just as the churches of the big names of nineteenth-century evangelical compromise collapsed to liberalism.”

If you go to his website you will find that he specifically calls out John MaCarthur as one of these poor misguided souls who dabble with compromise in music.

I’m not interested in debating the merits of Dr. Master’s opinions, at least not in this post, and He is more than welcome to them. What blows my mind is that MUSIC STYLES are worth calling out a Pastor by name and predicting his and Piper’s and Mahaney’s churches will collapse horribly because of said musical compromise, even as he as a Calvinist is a co-editor of a quasi-Arminian’s pamphlet. What’s wrong with this picture? Of course, music style is so much more important than what you believe about the Gospel, right?

My only point in this post is that certain side battles are elevated to a level of importance that is almost laughable! When you will call out someone who agrees with you 100% on the Gospel because of his music, while you hold hands with someone you disagree greatly on the Gospel because his music is as boring as yours you have redefined hypocrisy, or at least have some serious issues with your priorities. All of this, of course, is my humble opinion, especially the "boring" part. May God help us make much of what really matters and quit the trivial nonsense!

Hidden in Him!

Tony

End Times Madness

2009-03-10T09:57:00.007-04:00

Well, here we are again, another day, another prophecy. If you had not heard, David Wilkerson (think - the Cross and the Switchblade) is out with a very specific prediction of calamity, especially up in my neck of the woods. See it here. I think I agree wholeheartedly with Dr. John Piper's response. What is it with our modern day movement and the lunacy over end-times? I see people SO obsessed with this stuff, and not in a productive way!!! Regardless of your view on Eschatology (mine has changed alot!) isn't it getting old to be continually embarrassed by our own false prophets? Pull out your copy of "88 reasons the rapture will be in 1988" if you're not sure what I'm talking about! (Actually you might want to sell it on the internet as they're fetching a king's ransom!) Or maybe you could clean out your basement from all of the MRE's and water cannisters set aside for Y2k. Seriously, we gotta do a movie that combines the hippies from "Thief in the night" with Kirk Cameron and Mr. T. Now that would be the end-times movie to end all end-times movies! Honestly, can we really make fun of the Jehovah Witnesses' prophecies and failures? Even so Lord Jesus, come quickly, and spare us any more of this lunacy!

In all seriousness, I do believe that God's judgement is being seen in our country and around the world! The response from His people ought to be to seek Him and His kingdom, not to work ourselves up into a frenzy. Some hard times will be good for us!

Hidden in Him!
Tony

Conflicting Causes?

2009-01-19T18:17:00.004-05:00

I have been very concerned again recently with how often it seems that those on “my side” say and do the most perplexing things. It seems like the Biblical injunction to be wise as serpents yet harmless as doves is turned on it’s head with no thought given to the consequences before a lost and dying world. The most recent example was a quote I saw from a Pastor who stated how excited he was to celebrate General Robert E. Lee day. The statement was made today (MLK day) and was defended as simply the choice to celebrate a Godly man instead of a “womanizer.”

Frankly, the above statement shocks me. Either the person in question is monumentally stupid, or he’s monumentally stupid. The other option which I wont consider would be blatant racism. We don’t live in a vacuum! The things we say and do have REAL consequences! Why are we picking such absurd battles to fight? The facts are that most of America respects Dr. King (rightly or wrongly) and that he is seen as the “patron saint” of the civil rights movement. This is VISCERALLY personal for multiple millions of Americans. So, let’s suggest replacing that celebration with one for a Confederate General (irrelevant that he was a great Christian, in this context the Civil War is a powder keg) and then defend it as simply honoring a more deserving man. Why is it that we would risk alienating and needlessly hurting SO many people who we would otherwise want to reach for Christ? I digress…

The same thing seems to be happening all around me. I attended a “ One Man One Woman” rally in Trenton and held my placard up high only to lower it and wish I could shrink into the crowd as I heard some of the foolish things said from the platform. The same could be said in the abortion battle, the war against Christmas (as my good friend blogged about) and many other battles we choose to engage in.

I think we need to ask ourselves some serious questions! Do our causes conflict? Am I really willing to expend all of my ammo and slam shut all of my open doors fighting side battles, and not on the MAIN thing? For the sake of the Gospel, let’s pick our battles more carefully!

P.S. The picture is intended as satire. Could it be that in their eyes we look even more stupid?

Hidden in Him,

Tony

Gazing on His beauty or do-do religion?

2009-01-09T01:02:00.004-05:00

I have been captivated at the beginning of this year by my need to simplify my Christian life again - return to basics, if you will! The Lord has brought this home for me in several ways, one was on a prayer and fasting day we held at church. It was really cool to sense the Holy Spirit direct us to Psalm 27. As we meditated on it and shared with each other, it was obvious that He was speaking to us. Very specifically, we were riveted on verse 4.

One thing have I asked of the LORD, that will I seek after: that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the LORD and to inquire in his temple.

What was wild about this was that it was the exact opposite of what I was leaning towards at the start of this year! There is a TON of work to be done! As always, there are incredible needs in the ministry as well as the burden of our church plant. I felt the pressure and the “need” to encourage (push) our people to DO more. In fact, I was strongly leaning towards a theme for the year centered around the idea of “rising up to the task” or some such call to work. I don’t discount the need for more workers and more effort, yet it seemed as if God was calling me to recomputed and be reminded about the goal! THE ACTUAL GOAL!

Think of David… gazing on His beauty… what a picture! You can’t gaze in a hurry! You can’t gaze on His beauty while you busily do things for Him! We’re quickly reminded of Mary and Martha.

What does He really NEED from me? Was He impotent and unable to accomplish His chores, therefore He made me so I could help Him out? Did He not have the angels who could DO things for Him? Why do we so quickly boil the Christian life down to what we DO for Him. We may not actually SAY that, but in practice we so quickly DO that! We allow the Christian life to become “duty” and a check list of what I am accomplishing for Him. Is it possible that in my hurried scampering about He calls me to stop and gaze at his beauty?

Let’s get a definition.

Gaze - to look steadily and intently, as with great curiosity, interest, pleasure, or wonder.

Am I doing that? Do I have the time to do that? Is my life and my service characterized by awe, wonder and pleasure? As a Pastor, even if I am able to push and prod my people to “do” more, if there is no gazing going on has anything really been accomplished? At the end of the day is He going to be in awe of the work of my hands when I had no time to be in awe of HIM? Don’t we get this turned around so quickly?

I am reminded of all the “doing” of my legalistic past - all of the check-lists that were hoisted upon me and that I gladly piled on others. Was God impressed? Was I changed? Was ANYTHING of actual value produced or were we simply impressing each other with our “do-do religion.” Of late I have run across people I grew up with. People who were screamed at, yelled at, pushed and prodded to measure up… and today so many of them couldn’t possibly be further from those “lists.” My heart breaks to survey the landscape littered with broken and hurt people who never knew the pleasure of gazing on His beauty and now have left legalism only to embrace license and even more emptyness. I remember well the emptiness in my relationship with Christ even as I checked of every box on my list. What a joy it was to experience His grace, yet, I can so quickly fall back into that mode! We’re driven by accomplishment, by doing something. It fools us into a greater sense of self-worth. “Surely God must be glad He has me on His team.” “If every one in this church did as much as me…” If you’re honest, you’ve thought it to.

We proclaim boldly that justification is by faith alone, yet in practice we seem to believe that sanctification is by works. II Corinthians 3:18 seems to disagree.

And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

How does the change come? Beholding/gazing on His face, the Holy Spirit changes us into His image. All of my doing for Him means NOTHING unless it flows from GAZING upon Him. We might all agree with that in theory but in practice we feel we must see results, so we drive ourselves and others into harried little “Marys” and in the process suck the relationship right out of it! If it doesn't FLOW from Him it doesn't please Him! It can't! Is it possible that all of my running around in circles is actually counter-productive?

My church doesn’t need to “do” more, we need to gaze on His beauty. I have this funny feeling that more will actually get accomplished! For those who immediately say… It can’t be that simple, we have to DO something, I present Paul’s arguments in Romans! It IS FAITH alone, however faith that will not remain alone. I submit that a heart that is gazing on His beauty will be moved by His Spirit to DO in His power and for HIS glory! I submit we quickly get it all backwards. Have you been gazing on His beauty of late? He’s pretty awesome!

In His grace

Tony

I'm Grateful!

2008-11-25T00:19:00.004-05:00

I have SO much to be grateful for! God's grace on me as a sinner is chief among those things! I am so undeserving and continuosly amazed that He would love me! Why would He chose to use me for anything, much less ministry? Blows my mind! I have been blessed with a wonderful wife and two amazing children. We are two weeks away from our third. I AM BLESSED! As to the topic of this blog... I am blessed that God in His mercy chose to open my eyes to how AMAZING He is, and that He has allowed me to trade in formalism and deadness for a love relationship. He has seen free to free me from the fear of man and fill me with JOY in serving Him! He has blessed me with an amazing church and wonderful friends! You couldn't drag me back with wild horses! I am a BLESSED man!!!

Tony

The Kingdom!

2008-08-27T13:04:00.006-04:00

There has been a radical shift in my view of the Kingdom of God. I’m not really going in the direction of pre, post or a-mill with this post, though I have found that my view in that area HAS affected the way I see things today. I am more aiming towards how I view the body of Christ in the world today. My background (with the exception of a church or two that I attended) was incredibly strong on the proposition that the LOCAL church is all that really matters. The idea of “universal church” or my term “the Kingdom” were anathema. There were whole sermons preached (screamed) about this. We were fiercely independent. We were on our own, reaching the world for Christ. We were happy for other IFBX churches in other places, but that was about all we could muster even a smile for. Every other church in our town was really considered the enemy. Forget other denominations, heck, we were against most other Baptists! Because they failed to line up with us in some small area we really viewed them with disdain. If it looked like they were “successful” we would attribute it to “compromise” and being all about entertainment with no doctrinal substance. Forget “Bible” churches, “community” churches or other denominations. They were sell-outs, turn-coats, and not worthy to be even considered part of us! We really functioned as if we were on an island! An example that may seem extreme, yet it’s true… There was a church a block from ours that was named “Hilltop Community Church.” We renamed it “Hell-bottom” and it was referred to as this even by the church staff. I do not pretend that most IFB’s would act this way, this was one of the more radical churches I was a part of, yet the same general attitude was present in most churches I was exposed to.

All of that to say that there is such joy where the Lord has me today! I care deeply about core doctrine and I am unwilling to trade it in, yet I see a wide body of Christ, the Kingdom, and I can rejoice with what Christ is doing in so many different places and in different ways! I am THANKFUL that Christ is preached! I have become good friends and an admirer of several men who are Orthodox Presbyterian. I greatly respect the pastor of the local Christian Missionary Alliance and feel they are doing a wonderful work for the Lord in our community. I see HUGE benefits for the idea of being non-denominational as are some of my friends in “Bible” or “Community” churches. There are very good, Gospel preaching Methodist Pastors, I could go on and on! I am THRILLED to be part of the Kingdom! Our base church in Vineland is planting daughter a church in Bridgeton in association with the once hated Southern Baptists, and I’m having lunch on Friday with the Pastor of the local non-denominational church who wants to help us. We are naming the church ‘Emmanuel Bible Church’ though technically we would be “Baptist.” I wouldn’t trade where I am to return to where I was if you offered me the world. I was a paranoid little self-righteous Pharisee, who couldn’t see the beauty of God’s tapestry and the wonderful people who love him ALL around me! I’m so excited to be a part of the Kingdom!!! What is the coolest part of it is being able to be THRILLED when the CMA across town is growing, or when my OPC friend down the street is being blessed by the Lord! THEY are NOT my enemies!!! Praise the LORD for having my eyes opened in this area! You only have to go back about two generations to see most Orthodox Christians considering themselves one in Christ. Praise the Lord He is not building 50 denominations, rather, one KINGDOM!!!

I know that for some of our readers this all seems like stating the obvious, but many more will read these lines and identify fully with a mentality that looks down on EVERYONE! I believe that there are very few things more sickening in the eyes of the Lord than the Phariseeism in some of our circles. I remember the old quote when asked “What would you be if you were not a Baptist?” the cute reply was “I’d be ashamed.” I’m ashamed I EVER said that! Denominational pride is just as wicked as any other form of haughtiness or pride that God hates. We are to boast in Christ alone!!! It’s ALL about HIS Kingdom!

Disclaimer: Before anyone rushes to accuse me of broad-brushing, I would point you back to our permanent disclaimer and reiterate that I am simply describing MY experiences.

YES, there are things worth separating over! No, I’m not advocating throwing off the clear teachings of Scripture. No, I could never consider myself “inter-denominational” but am very comfortable with the idea of being “non-denominational.” I’m sure this wont be enough of a disclaimer, but please don’t read into the above paragraphs more than is actually there. I would gladly address any questions.

Tony

Eyes Wide Open

2008-08-12T23:38:00.009-04:00

Check out this amazing exaltation of God's grace and glory in the life of one most of us would have deemed hopeless. God is truly able!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,402483,00.html

When God opens eyes to the truth of Him it changes everything and no religion can stop the beautiful flow of grace from the changed!

Jesus, make us all brave for Your Name and Your glory!

Think. Love. Live.

Trevor

A Sad Distinctive...

2008-08-07T17:51:00.004-04:00

I was reading through the 'Institutional Distinctives' of a prominent and distinctively IFB college. About halfway down the second distinctive this stunned me:

Students who wish to be accepted at ______ _____ _______ College must come from a church of like faith and practice. We want to make it very clear to all of our students where we stand; therefore, we will not be able to accept charismatic, "Bible" church, "Christian" church, non-denominational, or inter-denominational students.

I cannot help but wonder what the goal of the college is. I'm sure they are wonderful people who desire to be pure and holy and right, but it just got me thinking. Does it not seem that the whole point is to take people who believe exactly as they believe and take 4-6 years to make sure that they come out with cap and gown believing the exact same thing and grounded in such a way that they never dare change (i.e. grow or mature or think or innovate etc.).

The most telling thing about this whole system is the fact that they simply cannot accept students from a charismatic church, 'Bible' church, 'Christian' church, non-denominational church, or inter-denominational church. I'm not trying to hate or spew venom, but in light of passages such as Mark 8:38-41, John 17, Ephesians 4:1-16, etc. this is extremely sad and, I'm afraid, a very clear commentary on the state of this movement. The saddest part of this distinctive is the beautiful, glorious, global, charismatic, Christian, Bible, non and inter-denominational Body from which they are distinguishing themselves. It's not surprising, but it is heart-breaking.

A sad distinctive indeed.

Think. Love. Live
Trevor

All Too Common

2008-08-05T17:48:00.017-04:00

The following article entitled 'What Are Some of the Common Marks of the Cults?" is from the CRI website (equip.org) and is written by Hank Hanegraaff. I added the bold type for clarity.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE COMMON MARKS OF THE CULTS?

One of the most devastating experiences someone could face is to have a loved one involved in a cult. What are some ways we can know that a certain group is in fact a cult?

The devil always hides behind a mask; and he seldom carries an ID card. If this statement is true, it is of utmost importance for us to discern a cult when we see one.

The first mark of a cult is its manipulation of Scripture. The Bible is twisted to fit the leader or group’s interpretation. Private interpretations are forbidden because the leader of the cult is the only one, of course, who is able to understand God’s voice properly. Their teachings distort the historic, orthodox claims of Christianity.

Second, many times cults manipulate people’s minds. There is little concern for individual thought and development. Education is usually discouraged while the convert is bombarded with the cult’s doctrine and literature. Members are called to leave or neglect their old family and life-style for a brand new one.

A third mark is the manipulation of time. Since salvation comes exclusively from the teachings of the group, in many cults members spend much of their time working for their organization. Family, school, leisure, sleep, and even food are most often neglected.

Finally, cults typically manipulate reality. They tend to have an exclusive “us”/“them” mentality in which society and old associates are all out to get them. Anyone outside of the group is suspect.

If a religious group exhibits one or more of the marks mentioned above, that group may well be considered a cult. Jesus Christ said that in the last days many false prophets would arise and deceive many (Matt. 24:11,24). To avoid the deception of the cults, we should be rooted in the teachings of the historic Christian faith, and receive Jesus Christ, God the Son, second Person of the Trinity, as Lord of our lives.

On the marks of a cult, that’s the Bible Answer Man Perspective. I’m Hank Hanegraaff.

Now, I'm not saying that the typical IFB church is in any way a cult (see disclaimer), but I would like to point out how personality-driven, churches that are caught up in extreme fundamentalism can certainly display some of the very same characteristics that are found in many cults.

First Mark: "Manipulation of Scripture". While many cults make up their own interpretations of Scripture or even write their own 'new' so-called revealed Scripture, many extreme IFB churches are certainly guilty of manipulating Scripture to fit their desired goals. Take dress standards for example. Many will take Duet. 22:5, "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God" to try and make it mean that no women should be allowed to wear pants. This is simply not Scriptural. This verse is a declaration to keep the sexes clear, not to make a certain type of dress illegal in the church. Women can wear pants and be extremely feminine and modest. This kind of manipulation simply leaves context, culture, and common sense out of the discussion entirely for the sake of control.

Another example is using I Samuel 24 as a 'proof-text' for extreme pastoral authority. In I Sam. 24, David cuts off the corner of Saul's garment and then laments, "The LORD forbid that I should do this thing to my lord, the LORD's anointed, to put out my hand against him, seeing he is the LORD's anointed." I have often heard this used by Pastors to ward off any questioning or arguing over his policies by saying that he is the man of God and no one is to stand up and question his 'God-given' authority (I have been warned with this passage and also the 'she-bears' passage more than once). David was also God's anointed and Saul was anything but a Pastor. This has nothing to do with Pastoral authority and is, once again, a manipulation of Scripture in order to increase power and control of a congregation. Nowhere in Scripture is a Pastor given absolute authority over a church . This is a clear manipulation of Scripture and, if nothing else, certainly looks cultish. There are plenty more, but for the sake of space I must continue. Maybe you have your own example you would like to leave in the comments.

Second Mark: "Manipulate People's Minds". I have been involved and educated in IFB circles and I have learned one thing through the entire experience: To be a good IFB. The colleges and seminaries in extreme fundamentalism do not encourage outside thought, independent thinking, or anything close to an eclectic look at Scripture. In many cases, these things are feared and not allowed anywhere near the campus. You can only listen to approved music, read approved books, use the KJV, dress a certain way, cut your hair a certain way, etc. One quickly learns to be a great follower of the extreme IFB way of thinking, but very few learn to develop into true leaders. The college I attended did stretch out a little by inviting a Presbyterian (I believe he was baptized baptist at one point late in life) to speak a few times for which they took all kinds of heat. In many extreme circles, education in any other college besides the approved colleges is simply unacceptable and will inevitably lead to what they call 'compromise' which is a key word for questioning and thinking. Where most Christian colleges and seminaries have a very eclectic staff that will challenge your presuppositions, encourage deep thought and meditation, and mold great leaders and innovators; many extreme IFB colleges simply have a staff full of people that all believe the exact same thing or else they will no longer be employed. In many cases this is not education, but rather indoctrination and manipulation. You can draw your own conclusions.

Third Mark: "Manipulation of Time". I have seen this time and time again with a guilt-driven, extreme fundamentalist style of ministry. "If you don't come out on Thursday night and go soul-winning then you are not being a good Christian." "If you don't go to church three times a week you're not going to thrive as a Christian." "We need someone to work and if you don't then you must not care about what God's doing around here." "We're having a revival this week and if you're not here every time you then you're not right with God." "The Bus ministry needs workers and if you're not doing anything on Saturdays then it's your shame that these kids won't be here." etc... The paid staff often have their time abused the most. They are asked to sacrifice time with their families as they work 80-100 hours a week trying to help the Pastor look as good as they possibly can. Their time is manipulated so that the church will 'grow' so that the pastor looks good. It has been my experience that many times the pastor is not willing to do himself what he commands of his congregation and staff. This is an abuse of people's time and the pastor's 'power'. This is indicative of cults and not true Christian churches.

Fourth Mark: "Manipulate Reality". Mr. Hanegraaff points out that many times in cults there is an 'us/them' mentality. Again, this is one thing that strikes so clearly when looking at many extreme IFB type churches. They are breeding grounds for this idea that they have it exactly right and anyone/everyone else are either sadly wrong or maniacally against them. Many sermons are produced with very little Biblical backing that talk of how they are the standard-bearers and anyone who is not the same is different and dangerous and must be avoided at all cost. Many times this leads to isolationism and the 'everyone's out to get us' mentality that begins to look so very cult-like. They begin to look at other Christians that have different standards and listen to different styles of music and read out of a different versions as the enemy and not as Christian brothers or sisters. Many times in these extreme fundamentalist churches 9 out of every 10 sermons will deal with separation and standards as they do everything that they can to keep their flock in their fold. It's a sad and dangerous mentality that leads to cult-like tendencies.

Conclusion: The intent of this post is not to try and prove that all IFB churches are cult-like in any way because that is certainly not the case (again, see disclaimer), but to point out that some involved in extreme fundamentalism have trended dangerously close to this mentality. This is a warning to anyone who thinks that they may be caught up in a spiritually abusive or even cult-like situation. Start asking questions and if you're not getting Biblical answers then get out. Being a Christian is not about being manipulated into doing the will of man, but is the beautiful joy and complete pleasure of gladly doing the will of the One who rescued you. True Christianity is a beautiful and glorious relationship and looks nothing like the harsh religion that characterizes cults and glorifies men.

*edited to better reflect my views on 8.6.08

Trevor

The Problem with Anonymity

2008-07-26T22:45:00.008-04:00

I hear many people in certain religious circles talk about how they are not ashamed of anything and how they take so called 'stand' after 'stand', yet they seem to be ashamed of their own comments here on the blog. I honestly do not care whether or not you put your name by your comments and I sincerely appreciate the fact that you take the time to read and reply, but if it's worth your time to write something then by all means let us know who you are. Especially if you're going throw a couple of hand-grenades and accuse us of things that we obviously have never done or never written. If you don't feel the necessity to do so then that is fine, but here are a couple of reasons that I believe you should...

1. It Gives Your Comments More Credibility.

If you say something that you feel is worth the time and effort then you should say it in such a way that you are not ashamed of placing your name at the end of it. If you do not place your name on it then that speaks volumes about the comment and perhaps about you. It says that you are ashamed of what you said because of the tone or the spirit in which it was said, or it says that you are afraid of the ramifications that your comments may bring. If for either of these reasons you are posting anonymously, then no one is going to take your comments with any seriousness and rightfully so. So add your name and add to your credibility with the other readers.

2. It Shows What Your Saying is Worth Saying.

I'm not saying your comments will have any worth whatsoever if you place your name by it, but it will say that you genuinely believe what you wrote is worth the time it took to write it. This will also add to the credibility as mentioned in point #1. If you are truly sincere and seriously concerned about something then you should put your name on it and let everyone know that you really believe in what you are saying. Whether you're penning down your random thoughts, trying to ask sincere questions, or trying to help in one way or another, adding your name to your comments will let everyone know that you believe in what you wrote. If you don't think it's worth putting your name by it then why would anyone think that your comments are important enough to take seriously.

Now, you may have some very real and legit reasons not to place your name by your comments, but in those cases the sincerity usually shines through in the spirit of the post. If you just want to throw out rude comments and try to accuse us of saying things or meaning things that obviously aren't true, then feel free to leave your name, but I believe we all understand the reasons that you do not as outlined above.

All that being said, let me apologize for my absence on both the blog and on the forum. It has been a crazy month or two for both me and Tony, but now we are back and looking forward to picking the pace up once again and attempting to glorify our great God and Lord, Jesus Christ. May we magnify Him in all we say, do, and write. May what we take time to write, as children of God, be said in such a way that we are not ashamed to place our name at the end of it.

Trevor

Book Review - Crazy Love

2008-07-23T15:26:00.006-04:00

My life has been a hectic mess as we are involved in alot of things right now. I feel as if even my time with the Lord has become hurried and has missed the depth of before. A week ago someone handed me a copy of Francis Chan's "Crazy Love." I was immediately curious as I have greatly appreciated the ministry of Brother Chan. I was able to be in a conference with him in '06 and hear him for a week, then at Passion '07 I saw the Lord use him powerfully as he challenged all of us on being Laodicean Christians. This book is very much in that vein. I have been challenged, humbled, encouraged, broken and left wanting more of my Savior as I have torn through these pages. This is the kind of book that could be used in a small group setting, etc to stir some serious conversation and soul-searching. Francis' heart beat is so foreign to our idea of Christianity that it does seem a little "crazy." But he's not just talking the talk! You have to check out this article in the most recent edition of WORLD magazine.

Sermons in the sun

Cornerstone Church in Simi Valley, Calif., has a problem not unlike many fast-growing evangelical bodies: It is running out of room.
The 4,000-person suburban congregation hopes to construct a new facility soon on 138 acres of private land just west of the city limits. But building plans for the proposed 3,000-seat sanctuary defy church conventions. The blueprints include no foyer space or coffee bars, no windows or doors, and no walls or roof. Cornerstone intends to hold services outside.
The idea of constructing a massive outdoor amphitheater in lieu of a more traditional brick-and-mortar structure developed out of church leadership meetings on financial stewardship. Lead pastor Francis Chan, a resolute advocate for simplicity and generosity, has instilled the virtue of frugality into his congregation and staff. Chan has downsized into a 1,000-square-foot home for his family of six in the interest of devoting more personal resources to caring for the poor.

Check out his website as well:

http://www.cornerstonesimi.com/

And the website for the book:

http://www.crazylovebook.com/

With Francis Chan, Nashville '06

Tony

We're Still Here!

2008-07-02T16:41:00.002-04:00

Just a little note to let everyone know that we are still here, but it has been a very busy month for both me and Tony. I'll be out of town for portions of the next two weeks and Tony is in the middle of a large project at his church that is taking up much of his time. As all of you know, with the sensitivity of the subject matter here, we want to take our time and be very measured in how we write and what we write about. We will be back very soon. Thanks

Trevor

Permanent Broad-brushing Disclaimer

2008-06-08T22:58:00.002-04:00

Though we have tried to repeatedly express on this blog that we do not in ANY way seek to project the idea that all Independent Fundamental Baptist are the same and that many do NOT share some of the characteristics that we at times discuss, I’d like to piggy-back on Trevor’s last post and put up a permanent disclaimer that we can reference in the future when someone feels we are broad-brushing the entire movement. It is clear that the “movement” is in no way shape or form a homogenous entity. There are many different segments or camps within it, and there are even some who really are Independent and not really a part of any sub-group within the “movement.” Anyone would be foolish to seek to impugn this entire “group” as if they could truly all be bunched together. We want to clarify that we do NOT EVER wish to project unto all of these dear people whatever topic we may be dealing with.

For example, on the subject of the King James Bible, within this group you will have a WIDE variety of positions ranging from the far right (Ruckman/Riplinger type ideas) to a semi-middle of the road position (David Cloud/Crown College, etc..) to a very open position (BJ crowd, etc.)

Obviously when dealing with the King James issue on this blog we realize that there would be many IFB’s who would in fact agree with us or at least not be very far from us. I could give example after example, whether it be standards, preferences, even doctrinal positions such as Calvinism, etc.

Another observation would be that even though some IFB’s would strongly disagree with some of our positions they would do so in a gentle and kind spirit characterized by a Spirit-filled and loving response. These are WONDERFUL people! God bless them! If you are one of these IFB’s, man, I don’t care if you disagree with me on almost everything, I’m proud to call you my brother or sister in Christ and I have NO problem with you. At the end of the day, I am NOT under the illusion that I am right in all areas. If you are characterized by a loving and gentle spirit you ARE lifting up Christ, regardless of where you stand on eschatology or music preferences! I am FOR YOU! Please, never feel attacked by this blog!!!

The purpose of this blog is NOT to attack anyone, but to lift up Christ! We DO wish to encourage and bless those who may be under some of the oppressive and legalistic segments of the “ugly right” within the movement. We have traveled a difficult yet exciting journey as God has done some amazing things in our lives, yet we remember the many times we felt all alone as we wondered where we even fit as we saw certain “beliefs” fade away in the light of scripture. It was the encouragement of some amazing people that God brought into our lives that blessed us on many occasions. All we seek to do here is chronicle our journeys and lay out random thoughts of what God is doing in us. We would love to see this blog and forum grow into a place for people to connect with others and be greatly encouraged as we hunger after God together. Sadly, some WILL feel the wrath of dogmatic and angry people as they make this journey. We wish to encourage them with the knowledge that we have survived that and they can as well. We don’t serve man, we serve God!

I have wonderful friends who I treasure greatly who are firmly IFB and who disagree with me in many areas. My brother-in-law is strong KJV, the whole package. I appreciate his kind and gentle spirit. I have no beef with him and am grateful for his love for the Lord and his humble and meek spirit. I am SO grateful that I can love and appreciate these fine men and that they can return the friendship. For complete clarity, we are NOT anti-IFB. We are anti arrogant and un-accountable pastors, leaders and tyrants, we are against ugly dogmaticism in non-essentials, we are against any Christian being stripped of his/her ability to study the word and obey the Holy Spirit. We are COMPLETELY against blind allegiance and loyalty to men and movements! We wish to exalt Christ with all we are!

Tony

It's Not About the IFB...

2008-06-07T20:10:00.006-04:00

I just wanted to throw something out there. I just spent the morning at a wonderful IFB church in the city above me. My kids actually play baseball in their church league. My father-in-law is the co-pastor there. They have standards of dress, music and they are strong KJVO, but one thing that stands above all of those things is the fact that they love the Lord! I love them. We have differences, but the love of Christ transcends those differences and where there is agreement we speak freely and where there is possible contention we simply don't find those peripheral issues worth the contention they may cause and we simply don't go there. I totally respect them and the standards that they have and when I am there I abide by every single one of them. If I have shorts on I don't go in their buildings and if I attend a service at their church I wear a suit. They know I'm 'different', but they respect me and love me as a Christian as I respect them and love them as lovers of Christ and worshippers of God. We golf, we play, we hang out, we bowl, and we have sweet fellowship in the name of our great Jesus! I had a wonderful conversation with a person on their staff this morning about some of these issues (and bear in mind that they are strong IFB. They attend pastors school in Hammond every year). You know what he said to me? It's stunning...

He said, "You're my friend above all else and that is not going to change." How awesome and how Christian is that??!!?? Sure we differ in some contentious areas, but we both love Jesus and at the end of the day that's all that really matters!

What's my point? It's this...

This blog is not about the IFB. It's not about bashing anyone or railing on a certain denomination because we are mad (in spite of the baseless allegations that have been made). This isn't a blanket broad brush of everyone and every church that is a part of the IFB movement. There are many wonderful Christian people who love Jesus above all else and are KJVO with dress and music standards etc. We, here at 'free from the box' have zero problem with them and have no beef with them in any way shape or form. As a matter of a fact, there are many wonderful people that we have and will continue to learn from who proudly display that banner, but are lovers and worshippers of Jesus and not worshippers of men or a movement.

What we are trying to help people see is that there is freedom from religious zealots who want to make you think that you are wrong because you think, because you differ on peripheral issues, or because you dare ask questions. We want to let people know that they are not alone when a tyrannical pastor makes them think they will never find another job in the ministry because they are no longer KJVO. We want to shine the light on the glory of Christ and let people know that the Christian world is huge and beautiful and socially and culturally diverse. We want to let lovers of Jesus know that it's o.k. not to agree 100% on every single thing. We want to give Christians a voice and an opportunity to ask questions and get answers in a safe and loving Christian environment.

We have seen the ugliness of people who love issues more than they love people and who boldly claim their conditional friendship based on 100% loyalty to a movement, and this is what must be questioned and must be called out and that is why this blog exists.

We're not mad at anyone, but we do have an agenda...to glorify God. I love my Christian brothers and sisters in Christ from every denomination, culture and country. We all serve a great and gracious Savior and when you've been changed by the power of His imputed righteousness how can we base friendship on whether or not one wears a suit and tie or listens to a certain type of music? It all pales in comparison to being radically changed by the cross of Jesus Christ! We've been made new! We are all fallen and unworthy but for the grace of God! May that be the tie that binds as we encourage those who are caught in the trap of men who would rather be loyal to men and movements than to love the children of God unconditionally.

Trevor

Opinion vs. Biblical Theology

2008-06-05T23:21:00.015-04:00

I have received a few letters the past few days challenging my 'changing' ways. I have been called a compromiser and had my ethics questioned all because of disagreement. Let me clarify a few things...

The problem that I see with the few people that have written from an authoritative standpoint concerning my apparent doctrinal error is that it is based on the idea that they are automatically right and anyone who disagrees with them is by default wrong. If there is any disagreement then the one disagreeing with them is automatically wrong and doesn't deserve a Biblical reason for the disputed doctrine. So far I've been called a compromiser, had my ethics questioned, and told I was in blatant doctrinal error. These same people have told me they are telling me these things because they genuinely care about me. Here's the problem: If they care about me so much and I'm in possible doctrinal error, then they should at least take the time to explain to me from a Biblical standpoint why I am in error. They haven't done this. As a matter of fact, when asked to do so they simply refuse. They come in claiming love and genuine concern and then fail to give me a Biblical reason why they believe I'm in error. I can only take from this that it is simply their opinion that I am wrong and, therefore, they lose all authority to make such bold claims. If I'm wrong and you show me Biblically that I am (and by Biblically I mean contextually, not simply pulling a verse here and there to back up wild claims) I will gladly change my position in a heartbeat. My greatest desire in life is to be thoroughly Biblical and I'm learning every single day. But if you just make accusations and cute alliterated jabs about who I am without one single Bible reference, I simply cannot do anything with that. It is not helpful and cannot be taken seriously. If there is going to be reason then reason with Scripture and not with opinion. If one claims that the KJV is absolutely perfect then the burden of proof lies on that person to back up that amazing claim Scripturally. If I claim that the sky is orange then it is not up to you to prove it is blue. The burden of proof would lie on me. If one says that everyone needs to wear a suit and tie or they are not right with God then the burden of proof lies on the one making the claim and not on the one who doesn't.

Let me make this perfectly clear...

I believe in the Trinity, Virgin Birth, the Diety of Jesus Christ, The Atonement, Salvation by grace through faith, The inerrancy of the Bible, the inspiration of Scripture, and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Line that up with anyone throughout history and this position is nothing short of being historically fundamental. If people believe these things then there is absolutely no reason to have disunity or separation without blatant willful and unrepentant sin.

As for KJVO, dogmatic views of eschatology, certain dress standards, music standards, etc. These simply have no place in historical fundamentalism. If you make the bold claims that only certain music is ok and only certain dress is acceptable and only one particular version of the Bible is absolutely perfect, then the burden of proof lies on you to show that your claim is Biblical. The burden of proof does not lie on me to prove why I don't believe these things. If you want to believe these things, I don't have a problem one with that, but don't tell me I'm a compromiser and unethical because I do not. Especially in light of the fact that the claims have not been backed up with one relevant passage of Scripture.

We have not and will not use this blog to tell people they are wrong for believing differently that we do. We realize there are cultural and social considerations for things such as dress and music and preaching style. There are also traditional considerations in many places that must be taken into account. We realize that people are going to do things differently than we do and that is perfectly fine. I don't wear a suit and tie, but there great men of God who do. That doesn't make one of us right and one of us wrong, but rather that makes us different and diverse. We have a contemporary worship style but others do not and they often have strong reasons to do so, but again we don't call each other heretics, we both have hearts crying out to God with different means. When there is difference that doesn't have to mean that there is right and wrong. That is absurd. It simply is what it is: difference. There are certain things that cannot be compromised and we believe in those things with all our hearts and souls. But for all the rest I quote Augustine,

"In necessary things, unity; in doubtful things, liberty; in all things, charity."

Let us sound a call for unity that allows for diversity! Let's love one another in spite of our differences and not simply because you agree with me or vice versa. How can we ever learn, discern, or grow if all of us are exactly the same. The beauty of Christianity is the ability to disagree on the peripheral while agreeing on the necessary. May we not compromise that great freedom given to us by our great God and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Trevor

Where did the arrogance come from?

2008-06-02T19:24:00.002-04:00

Where did the arrogance come from?

Over the weekend I attended my baby sister’s high-school graduation in North Carolina. She graduated from a small IFB Christian School. It felt like I traveled back in time as I sat in the auditorium and saw all of the trappings and arrogance I so vividly remember in my nightmares even as it was obvious that the “success” those circles craved eludes this dying church. The auditorium could probably seat 350, yet 40 of us filled out the first five pews to watch the ceremony for the three graduates. When I say watch, that’s what I mean. It was more depressing than a funeral. The service (complete with four guys in suits on the platform) moved along with military precision. One song, announcements, one song, testimony, one special…. You get the idea. Watching the four “men of God” on the platform grimace as we sang “Great is Thy faithfulness” was enough to make me sick to my stomach. I ‘ve observed Catholic services with more life and vigor than these poor people could muster. As the “ensemble” performed their special music the pasted on grin by the woman doing the falsetto stuff was an incredible “joker” impersonation. There was almost a creepiness to the whole service. When my baby sister made her way to the platform I had suffered more than I could take and I broke the silence with a “You go, girl!” She smiled and went on to give her speech. She broke down in tears as she spoke of her parents and I nervously glanced up at the pontiff (pastor) to see if this show of needless emotion would bring some consequence. My sister wrapped up her speech with a couple of lines that didn’t sound like her. She said how “most of all she was grateful for her teachers at the school who had sacrificially lived Christ before her and how she wanted to live her life emulating them.” This struck me a little strange, yet the grin on the pontiff’s face made it clear he enjoyed it very much. When my sister sat down another special was “performed” in perfect pitch and complete deadness, then the pontiff made his way to the pulpit. By the look on his face I knew we were in for something interesting and sure enough… I’ll do my best to produce his words verbatim…

“We are going to maintain proper decorum throughout this service and we ask you to do the same.” (Remember, I’m the only one who has made a peep so far in the service)
Ok, so he’s an uptight jerk… but he didn’t stop. “These graduates have worked hard and they are worthy of your respect” I drop my head in disbelief, there’s a nervousness and tension in the room that brings back floods of memories,,, but the pontiff is not done. “ If you do not have enough respect for your own accomplishments in life to act with decorum I truly pity you, but you should at least be able to respect these graduates and their accomplishments.” As the harsh and completely unnecessary words of this puffed up fool hung over the room I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. He’s obviously used to intimidating people with his cutting words, but I didn’t feel intimidated, I felt incredibly depressed. I’ve been screamed at by Bob Gray, filleted with the atomic bombs that proceed from Jim Vineyard’s mouth, seen the worst offenders in my old circles turn purple as they screamed at me or some other helpless kid, so this puffed up 5’5” wanabee only looked pathetic with his verbal pea-shooter. I was just reminded of all the oppressive fools that I have been around in ministry. I have spent the last two days on a trip down memory lane, and I ask myself this question… “Where did the arrogance come from?” When exactly did “men of God” become arrogant, oppressive, manipulative jerks? When exactly did we begin to excuse such boorish behavior because it was some-how justified by the righteous indignation of the jerk behind the pulpit? Someone please tell me how Christians who love God with all of their hearts would ever tolerate clowns like Phil Kidd or Jim Vineyard without placing them on church discipline for their wickedness? The further I get away from it, the more it blows my mind how Christians will tolerate men who DO NOT display the fruit of the Spirit in positions of Spiritual authority. You and I both know that none of the men on the platform at my sister’s graduation will have the spine to sit down with the “pontiff” and confront him over his behavior. These men are FULLY unaccountable. NO ONE questions them. It’s not ok! WHO DO WE THINK WE ARE???? Where did ANY of us as Pastors/preachers think we got the authority to speak with such condescension towards anyone else? Where exactly did we forget that it’s only grace that allows us to stand? Where did the ARROGANCE come from? God help us!

The buffoon behind the pulpit knew nothing about me. I wasn’t in suit and tie. I could have been an unsaved family member who had been dragged kicking and screaming to a church for someone’s graduation. Yet he felt the need to try to completely humiliate me in front of everyone there. The picture just got worse later as I spoke with my sister. The lines at the end of her speech, the ones about her teachers modeling Jesus and her wanting to emulate them, were put in her speech verbatim by him. Wait, it gets worse…
He taught three of her classes this last year. You read that right.

I’m no better than this man. I’m a hopelessly depraved ego-maniac. I recognize that. I recognize the leanings in my heart to this same thing. I grew up around it. At times, sadly I have even emulated it. It is WICKED, however, and may I never excuse such behavior in my life, even if I fail and act in such a manner. May the preacher of God’s Word be characterized by humility, meekness and gentleness.

Where did the arrogance come from?

Tony

Freedom...

2008-05-19T00:23:00.008-04:00

Much has been discussed lately about our freedom in Christ and the responsibilities that come with that freedom. When we speak of freedom in Christ, we must always be wary of using it as an excuse to simply do whatever we want in the name of liberty. Our freedom is not a freedom that simply gives us license, but it is a freedom to follow hard after Jesus as His children who love Him because He first loved us. It is the freedom to pursue Him in a personal and growing relationship unencumbered by the bonds of legalism and manmade religion. It is a freedom to give up everything for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus our Lord!

When we read Paul's writings we see what this freedom in Christ truly is. This freedom is quite the opposite of the so-called 'American Dream'. The freedom that Paul had was not a freedom to gain earthly things and pleasure and popularity for his own sake, but rather the freedom to give it all up for the glory of God and count it as gain! Our freedom is not a freedom to be burned upon our own earthly lusts, but a freedom that is consumed with glorifying God whether by life or by death. The freedom we have been given is the freedom to set our minds and affections on things above and not on things here on the earth. This is the freedom to live as life was meant to be lived -- for the glory of our sovereign, creator God. It's the freedom to give up carnal pleasures and count it as great gain, it's the freedom to suffer terribly and realize it's all working together, and it's the freedom to face the very doorway of death and know it's the threshold of paradise.

Oh, we may argue about dress, music, bible versions, etc., but none of us have the right to claim 'freedom in Christ' as an excuse to live for our own glory and pleasure. That is simply not the freedom that we have been given in Christ. We have been set free from the wrath of God, by the grace of God, for the glory of God. Let's live free from the bonds and cares of this world, and let's use that freedom given to us by Christ's sacrifice and His unmerited mercy and grace to present ourselves as living sacrifices which is our reasonable act of worship!

Related Scripture:

Philippians 1:12-30 & 3:1-10

Colossians 3:1-17

Romans 1:16-18

Romans 8

Romans 12:1-2

I Cor. 15:55-56

Trevor

About that slippery slope...

2008-05-14T22:03:00.003-04:00

Allow me to post a follow up to Trevor’s post. As I read through his post, I appreciate what he’s saying and identify with it, yet I hear already the howls of those who will read a lot more into it than it actually says. Allow me to be the one who takes on the questions immediately formulated in the minds of those who will read and judge.

What Trevor is NOT talking about.

He’s not talking about any fundamental Doctrine of the Word of God. I believe this can be clearly seen in his article. There is NO foundational doctrine that Trevor or I have shaken off as we have gone “down the slippery slope.” In fact, those beliefs are more cherished now, and stand in stark relief from the so many other “truths” we held as their equals. When all of the filler goes away, truth is left in ALL of it’s beauty, and it’s worth dying for! So, as a response to those who will immediately howl that Trevor advocates throwing what we believe over board, that is not at all what he is saying. In essentials unity and in non-essentials liberty! Both of us currently have in our churches people who disagree with us on matters of eschatology, practice, preferences, etc. That is actually a GOOD thing! One of the signs of a healthy church is definitely the ability afforded members to be lead by the Spirit of God in areas that are not clearly specified in scripture. If anything, we are more concerned than ever about studying and knowing God’s Word. We have simply thrown off the chains of man’s litmus tests and rules and regulations. We have come to the place where we are not concerned about how other believers would judge us, but we do care very much about the honor and glory of God!

He is not talking about a license to sin. Actually, interestingly enough, in this journey there are areas in our lives in which we are much more “conservative” than we ever were before while we were simply checking off the important items on a checklist. If by “sin” you mean relaxed clothing or a Chris Tomlin worship song or enjoying a good movie at the theatre, than you’re going to call us wicked “sinners.” If, however, we define sin Biblically, there’s never been a time in our lives of more heightened awareness of the holiness and awesomeness of God! Believe me, it wasn’t the Holiness of God that kept me from taking my kids to see a movie in the theatre before, it was the fear of man-made dogmatic legalism. Freedom in Christ allows me to enjoy that movie, but it may well call me to let go of something else my heart would have held dear before, and I would have still been “ok” since my hair was cut “right” and I was wearing a tie.

What exactly are we “free” from, then? Man’s oppressive, legalistic, pietistic and hypocritical commands. We are NOT free to do as we wish! We are bound by the word (what it actually says, not some guy screaming about Sandy Fatty and Steve Grunt from the pulpit). We are bound by the Holy Spirit of God! We are free to glorify Him with everything He has given us (whether it fits the IFBX mold or not) and with everything we are! I will be the first to admit that many break “free” from legalism and replace it with “license.” This may make the individual a little less miserable, but it is very dangerous. If there is not a rock solid relationship with Christ, with a hunger to serve Him, you may well jump from the frying pan into the fire! We are NOT free to do as we wish! In fact, there is no “freedom” that I enjoy now by God’s grace, that I would not be willing to lay down in a heart-beat as the Holy Spirit prompted me. I would refrain, however, from pushing such a decision on someone else. That, sadly is what happened in many of the churches of my youth, and is still prevalent in many circles today.

So, I agree with Trevor. Once you start thinking through many of these issues, you may well see many changes very quickly in your life. Your view of the body of Christ will widen. Your judgmental spirit of others will begin to fade quickly. Your feeling of superiority based on conformity to man made lists will be shattered. You may well see many old “taboos” disappear over-night. This, I believe, is the “slippery slope” Trevor hints at. Examine your motives carefully, however! Have a clean conscience! Move only as prompted by the Holy Spirit. Be humble about the changes. Don’t look down on those who remain where you were. Honestly, this is a serious cause for concern for all of us who have moved away from some of these things! May we not show the same judgmentalism towards those still holding to certain beliefs that we fault them for having towards our liberty in Christ. Let us respect and be gracious to those whom we disagree with! You do NOT have to be where we are to be our cherished brother/sister in Christ! If you would afford us the same sentiment, Christ would most certainly be glorified! God bless you! May we be humble and meek, never rubbing our “freedom” in the face of others. I agree with Trevor's post. I hope this may answer any questions/objections.

Tony

The Slippery Slope...

2008-05-13T22:50:00.006-04:00

In my life, I have heard many a sermon on the 'slippery slope' of so-called compromise. The idea is that once you 'compromise' on one thing, then, before you know it, you have given up on all of your 'convictions'. Therefore, you had better be careful and tow the line and you will be a good, strong 'fundamentalist'. I'm sure you have heard the same thing.

Since the lid has fallen off of my box of pseudo-fundamentalism (so called because the fundamentals that were taught were neither biblical nor historical such as KJV-onlyism, dress standards, and absolute pastoral authority to name a few), I have talked to others jokingly about my slide down that slippery slope. The more I look at it and think about it, those warnings were right. It didn't take but one of my stubborn, inbred presuppositions shattering to send me straight down that slippery slope. Now I guess I'm somewhere at the bottom and considered a disappointing compromiser to certain of the brethren.

So, what is this 'slope' that they don't want you to slide down? Is it really a compromise of your 'convictions' or is it something entirely different. Oh, I believe that they are right in that you will slide down very fast once you start, but my contention is that it is a very good thing and very far from anything that will damage true biblical conviction.

The slippery slope that they want you to avoid so that you will remain a good 'fundamentalist' is the slippery slope of hard questions and thinking. I know it sounds too simple, but that is exactly what sends you straight down, at a good clip, that slippery slope. That is exactly what happened to me. It all started when I began to ask some questions about KJVOism and thinking biblically on the subject. Soon thereafter, I was no longer KJVO. When I realized the shallow scholarship and un-biblical reasoning for that, I began to question everything else and...voila...I'm not just sliding, but I'm in near free-fall down the slippery slope toward an intimate, vibrant, growing and real relationship with Christ with an intense desire to be truly biblical.

I'm no longer KJVO, my wife wears pants (I feel kind of silly even saying that), I love contemporary worship music, I wear jeans when I speak, I don't go door-to-door soul-winning, I'm not pre-trib or pre-mil, and the list goes on. Yet, I'm growing. I'm jealous for the glory of my Jesus and my desire is to be intensely biblical in all that I do. I can truly say that I love Jesus more today than at any other point in my life. I now realize that I don't have all the answers, but I also realize that I don't have to. I love and pray for other Christians from other denominations who don't believe just like I do. We laugh together, eat together, hang out together, talk together, cry together, pray together, and in some cases go to church together, and that's not only o.k., but it is beautiful and it is right! My life is no longer about whether someone agrees with me on every single point, but it's about glorifying God and making Him famous. I've found I have much more in common with true Christians than not in common. I've found beautiful freedom to glorify my God in my skin with my gifts and talents that He's given me.

Oh, I'm at the bottom of slope so to speak, but it's a glorious place of questioning, thinking, talking, and loving. It's a place of growing closer and closer to Jesus and loving His children more and more. It's a place of unity and solidarity where people can be themselves and where they can be real. I may be down the 'slippery slope', but I've got to tell you, the view from down here is amazing! It's no longer the four walls of the cardboard box of legalism, but it's the glorious freedom in Christ that transcends space and time.

So, in the nearly immortal words of Bob Barker, let me invite you to 'come on down'! You'll never be the same once you begin the slide!

Trevor

Why I am not King James Only

2008-05-06T15:07:00.019-04:00

I grew up King James Only (KJVO from here on out), but I am no longer. There are several reasons for my transformation. Before I get into that let me preface everything I say with the fact that I have no problem with someone being King James preferred. There is nothing wrong with the King James Version and I have no qualms with someone who prefers it above all others. My difficulty lies with the 'onlyist' position and I believe none of their arguments hold any water because they are coming from an assumption that the KJV is perfect. This assumption leads all their arguments into circular reasoning. Here were some of my arguments that came crumbling down as my presupposition about the perfection of the KJV began to shatter... (this is not exhaustive, but simply a sampling of the KJVO position)

Argument #1: The KJV is 100% inerrant, in that every word is 100% correct and since every other translation doesn't match the KJV then it/they are perversions.

This argument fails in many ways. If that is the case then which KJV is the correct one? The Cambridge and Oxford KJV's differ in three different places:

Jeremiah 34:16 - Oxford ~ 'whom ye'; Cambridge ~ 'whom he'

2 Chron. 33:19 - Oxford ~ 'sins'; Cambridge ~ 'sin'

Nahum 3:16 - Oxford ~ 'fleeth'; Cambridge ~ 'flieth'

I realize this seems like nothing, but if your view of 'inerrancy' is that every word has to be 100% perfect or you have a 'perversion', then either the Oxford or Cambridge is wrong and therefore not the Word of God (obviously we realize they are both very much the Word of God and small differences such as these mean very little).

Another example is the word 'Easter' found in Acts 12:4. It is the greek word 'pascha' (transliterated) and it is found 29 times in the N.T. It is the greek word for 'passover' and is translated so 28 times as such in the KJV. The only place it is not is in Acts 12:4 where it is somehow translated 'Easter'. It is simply the wrong word. It should not be Easter it should be passover and is translated so in every other translation. Again, I have no problem w/ the KJV, but you simply cannot ignore this and say the translation is 100% perfect.

These are simple things, but they started me on the road to realizing the my KJV only view of God's Word was not biblical and not a reality.

Argument #2: God promised to preserve His Word and if he didn't do it perfectly then He wasn't telling the truth. Since God doesn't lie then His perfect Word must be on earth and it is found in the KJV.

Tony handled this one quite well in the above post. The beauty of preservation isn't that God perfectly and inerrantly preserved His Word in the KJV. This was never a promise in God's Word. The beauty of preservation is that of all the manuscripts ever found, they agree completely 98% of the time and they never vary on major doctrine. We can know we have the Word of God when we hold modern translations in our hands because of God's preservation of His Word.

Argument #3: Comparison Literature.

This is where KJVO advocates compare other versions to the KJV and then claim that Satan is using the modern 'perversions' to slowly take away the blood of Christ, or baptism, or the virgin birth, etc.

This argument fails on many levels. One example is the claim that the MV's are 'bloodless'. The KJV does, in Colossians 1:14 have the phrase 'through his blood' where the modern versions do not. This certainly does not render the MV's 'bloodless', but rather seems to make them more accurate than the KJV. This phrase cannot be found in the majority of texts from any textual family. It neither has support from the oldest manuscripts, nor does it have support from the majority of manuscripts. If the NIV and other MV's are bloodless, then so are the majority of manuscripts from which both the KJV and MV's are translated. Of course it is silly and not accurate to say any MV is 'bloodless' especially when one of the main principles of our Bible study is to compare Scripture w/ Scripture.

The 'comparison literature' argument also fails in that it automatically considers the KJV to be perfect and thus is simply a circular argument w/ no basis in fact.

Argument 4: The KJV isn't copyrighted and thus all the MV's that are copyrighted are just an attempt to make money.

This argument is handled well in this article.

In 400 years none of the versions we have will be copyrighted either. This is a non-argument that has zero credibility.

Argument 5: The Psalm 12:6-7 argument.

This argument states the God was speaking of the KJV in Psalm 12:6-7. Most credible KJVO's have stopped using this one because of it's absurdity, but you still see it from time to time.

Contextually this obviously has nothing to do with God's Word, but His promise of help and rescue from earlier in the context. I'll let you check it out for yourself.

Argument #6: The 'I just believe it by faith' argument.

This is often used when all debate and arguments fail. It is the 'I just know it's right' fail-safe. The problem is, you can know the sky is orange, but it simply doesn't change the fact that it isn't. Faith based on something that doesn't exist is not faith, but blind followship and has no place in the life of a child of the true and living God.

Conclusion: These were some of my arguments, and although I had some doubts from time to time I would have never dared question the Word of God. That all changed one day when I was on the phone with Tony and he told me he wasn't KJVO any longer. I didn't know whether to hang up on him and never speak to him again or listen to what he had to say. I listened and God used that conversation to help me start asking some difficult questions and start diving into a deep study of the issue. Finally, my presuppositions began to crumble as my arguments failed to live up to what God's Word truly has to say on the issues of inspiration and preservation. I poked my head out of the box so to speak.

God's Word is beautifully preserved and it is found in many different translations. Sure they differ and I have my preferences, but I can boldly claim I have the Word of God as I hold my NIV, ESV, KJV, NKJV, etc. If you are KJVO, let this be a challenge to prove out your position Scripturally and contextually. If you are starting to question then let this be an encouragement to begin to ask the hard questions and not simply take someone's word on something so important. Most importantly, may we glorify our great God and Savior in how we handle this debate and His precious Word.

Trevor

About those "Perversions..."

2008-05-05T19:48:00.004-04:00

“How much poison would it take to make a cup of water poisonous? Just one drop, right?” I’ve heard this arguments or variants on this argument 1,000 times as an attack on the modern “perversions.” This is so simple and so clear, yet it is an absurd comparison. The assumption being made is that “wicked people” insert poison into the Bible, therefore making it a “perversion.” The opposite is true. Why do we have to get all worked up about the textual debate instead of standing back in awe and gratitude that in a supernatural way God’s word has been preserved in the body of the texts and that there is unquestioned agreement over 98% of the text? Why can’t we rejoice that the 2% that is disputed and can be debated does not change ONE single truth? There are no contradictions and no truth left out! It is an AWESOME thing that ought to be celebrated! Even if one were to come to the conclusion that one family of texts is to be preferred based on an examination of the evidence, why is there a need to turn it into an argument about “poison?’ I mean, if you were to be fully convinced that some of the readings the critical text omits should be in there, how does the absence of those passages turn the rest of God’s word into poison? Isn’t that rather close to blasphemous? This type of approach is usually done by men who simply parrot those who they have heard and “amened” by those who blindly accept what they are presented with. Never is the fact presented that there are serious debates and questions to be confronted. Does the common KJV waving fanatic have any idea about the manuscript evidence supporting the “Comma Johaneum” in the majority text? Nope. I tell you what though, a good story about poison with some frantic waving of the KJV and an amen line like “Bless Gawd, you can keep your HIV’s I’ll keep my BIIIIIIBLE,” will certainly make you feel like you’re standing for God. Is it possible that in the end you are denigrating His word and causing harm for the cause of Christ? You sure you want to burn those “perversions?”

Note: I do not mean to broad-brush all KJV advocates. I realize there is a wide range and if this does not speak to your position, please disregard it. It very specifically addresses a mentality I spent a lot of time around. If you feel from an examination of the evidence that the KJV is the best translation I have no beef with you. God bless! Please be careful however how you feel about and describe other translations of God’s word.

Tony

Baby steps away from KJV onlyism

2008-05-02T22:29:00.004-04:00

I always had questions because I grew up reading the Bible in another language. When I heard the teaching that the KJV was "perfect" in EVERY word, and the modern versions condemned as "imperfect" and therefore "perversions" because there were different words used in translation and the KJ ones were the perfect ones, I knew I had a problem. My Spanish Reina Valera and my Italian Diodatti couldn't be "perfect" and by definition would have to be "perversions" since they at times used different words or phrases than the KJV. ( I understand now the underlying textual issues much better than I did then, but still, the NKJV was as hated if not more than the modern versions even though it came from the same textual family.) Anyway... I could never fully buy in, because to buy in would be to condemn my Bibles as perversions. I knew something was fishy. Then I had the expereince of spending my senior year in High school at a church that taught King James Regenerationalism and the heresy that the Gospel had to be presented FROM the KJV translation. It was exposure to this far right nonsense that undermined even more my ability to swallow the whole KJV pill.
It wasn't until my first year in the pastorate, when I had to weekly preach bilingualy and reconcile the texts of the Spanish Reina Valera and the KJV that I had my breakthrough. In the words of Micky Carter... "Things that are different are not the same." Week after week I would run into differences in translation. Now mind you, I'm not talking about major differences, but clear examples of different words being used in each language, bringing out different flavors from the original. Sometimes I would look at my TR and feel like the KJ had come closer to representing the text. On other occasions I would find the opposite and feel the RV was more exact. Many times, they were both bringing out a slightly different shade of the greek word (NT) and were in fact complimentary, though somewhat different.
What was I to do? Throw my Reina Valera away? Was it a "Perversion?" Or was the KJ the perversion? Or, as I already suspected in my heart, had I been fed something that simply wasn't true. I knew about translation. I'd done it all of my life! I knew you always lost SOMETHING in translation. Yet I had been asked to suspend this knowledge and accept "by faith" the perfection of the KJ when I KNEW in my gut there is no such thing as "perfect" translation!!! I realized they were both simply that... translations - period. Neither perfect, both translations. Why was that so hard to grasp?
So even before I began a 3 year study of the textual debate and came to some different conclusions from what I had been taught, I knew that the ground below my feet was shifting, and things would never be the same.
I am NOT anti - KJV. I believe it to be a very good translation (for someone living in the 1700's) of the Bible. I have found the NKJV to be a more consistent transaltion of the TR, and it is easier to understand as well. I wish there were a solid translation in English from the Majority Text. I do not believe the "Critical Text" translations to be "perversions." Though I am uncomfortable with some of the missing readings, I believe them to be the Word of God and am grateful for them.
I do NOT believe I have all of the answers. I am very thankful however to be free from equating man's work (translation) with God's -- inspiration and preservation.

Tony

Transcending Love

2008-05-02T17:44:00.005-04:00

I posted an article on our church blog that I believe is relevant here. It is about an interesting encounter I had and the transcending love of Christ. Check it out here...... Transcending Love

Trevor

Radically God-centered

2008-04-29T12:29:00.005-04:00

As part of my time with the Lord in the mornings I am reading John Piper’s devotional entitled “A Godward life.” I am so grateful for the day several years ago when I first read “Desiring God.” The Lord has used Dr. Piper in an incredible way in my life. Today I believe I own every book he’s written and I am SO thankful for his heart and passion for the Glory of God.

This morning’s devotional, again, centered my heart on the reason for all of it. Allow me to reproduce his words verbatim…

“God has been merciful to us so that we would delight in glorifying Him for His mercy.” He then quotes Ephesians 1:4-6 and Psam 86:12-13. He continues…
“God’s love is the ground. His glory is the goal. Why is this important? It’s important because unless we understand this we will not know what love really is. The love of God is not God making much of us, but God’s saving us from self-centered sin so that we can enjoy making much of Him forever.”

Wow!!! That truth still blows my mind! The glory of God is the center of it all! I’m not saved to go to heaven or escape hell; I’m saved for the glory of His name!!!

Oh God, help me be radically God-centered today!!! Help me glorify You in every SINGLE thing I think, say and do!

Tony

Musings on expository Preaching

2008-04-27T23:17:00.004-04:00

One of the things that has drastically affected my life and ministry was the decision made 8 years ago to begin preaching through the Bible verse by verse instead of continuing with "topical" preaching. The result has been profound, but not only in the way it has affected my congregation, it has been amazing in my life. It trully is something special (especially for someone who never trully saw this style of preaching modeled) to see a book of the Bible come alive, instead of cherry-picking thoughts here and there. I can think of several very real results in my life.

1. I was tied to the text. I had to really dig in and understand what the text as a whole was saying, not just take a superficial truth, add three tear jerking illustrations and a poem and deliver it. My first efforts were rudimentary, and I look back pained by the mess I made of Ephesians, yet I had to start somewhere! I began listening to expository preachers of God's Word. I began reading commentaries as messages and seeing the Word unfold before me. I also began to wonder what exactly I went to Bible college for... but that's another story!

2. I had to deal with difficult truths and study the Word deeply. A topical preacher never has to handle the hot potatoes. He can eternaly bypass them in search of the low-hanging fruit, but one who has committed to work through the text has put himself in the position of having NO choice! This was VERY good for me!!! Believe me, there have been many weeks as I sit down to study that I tell myself... "This would sure be a great week to preach a topical message..."

3. I have had a hard time with preaching "what I have been taught!" Let me explain. As part of my decision to preach expository messages I promised the Lord that I would preach HIS WORD and nothing more. Man, that sure has robbed me of some good "proof texts!" It's amazing how context can strip away the use of verses you have always heard employed in a certain way, and you find yourself realizing that scripture says something else entirely! As a result of being forced to be honest with the text, I had to reconsider some things I had been taught based on flimsy evidence and twisted verses. Needless to say, the teachings of men got tossed through the window and the truth of God won out.

4. I have more and more begun to see the incredible harmony of scripture. Instead of seeing groups of verses you begin to trully grasp larger arguments and fit them within the mosaic of scripture. My knowledge of the word and what it actually says has grown exponentially.

5. It has humbled me! With the growth I was describing there has been an incredible realization of how far I need to go yet. Every once in a while my mind will wander back to the cocky young punk this church called as a pastor over 9 years ago and shudder in utter disbelief. What in the world were they thinking! I wouldn't vote me in now, back then? Wow!!!! Lord, have mercy!!! I realize more than ever how inadequate I am to stand before a congregation and say "thus says the Lord!" There was a time in which bravado and my "stage persona" adored the art of "preaching" today I stand in awe that he could use me! I tremble at the though of mis-representing His words or sloppily presenting my thoughts anchored on one verse taken out of context!

6. It has kept me from hobby-horses and or reactionary preaching. It's hard to do all of that nonsense when you are tied to the text. At the end of the day the people are spared the emotional swings and nonsense that comes from preaching AT people or problems. The Holy Soirit is free to do His work. I could go on and name more benefits, and these are all in MY life! I believe that our church has been strengthened and the people have been grounded in a much deeper and better way than would have been the case before.

I am currently making my way through the book of Romans. This morning we were in Romans 4:13-17 as I preached the 22nd message to date in Romans. By God's grace, as long as He gives me the ability, the primary teaching that goes on in the church I pastor will be verse by verse through a book of scripture. I encourage you to consider the benefits of actually teaching what the Word says, not skipping around and taking a little of this and a little of that. God bless you!

Tony

The Myth of Pastoral Authority and It's Consequences

2008-04-25T17:24:00.007-04:00

What I mean by pastoral authority is the myth that somehow there is a distinction between the 'clergy' and the 'laity', and that the Pastor is somehow above reproach and is not to be questioned. This is not a biblical doctrine and is simply never taught in Scripture. Many are ensnared in this 'cult-like' mentality that leads to, not only being abused, but thinking you (the abused) are the problem. Here is a good article that explains this mentality and it's dangers.

"The Cult Leader in a Baptist Church"

Trevor

Trevor's Story

2008-04-24T01:18:00.021-04:00

My story is not nearly as dramatic as Tony's but is just as full of grace and awe. I grew up in Ripley, WV and graduated from Ripley High School in 1992. I attended Ripley Baptist Temple until the age of 19. My church was by no means a part of radical fundamentalism and my journey begins many miles and years away from those wonderful people. I thank the Lord, as I look back on my journey of grace, for the wonderful and caring influences that He put in my life (and in many cases still in my life) from Ripley Baptist. I love that church and those people with all my heart, and look forward to being with them when I visit my great hometown.

In 1994 I began attending Crown College (Temple Baptist Church and Dr. Clarence Sexton) and met my future wife, Joy, in 1995. We were married in July of '97 and I graduated in '98 followed by Joy in '99. Crown is where Tony and I first met as roommates in 1995. I was having a great time and met some wonderful people and never even thought to question one tenet of what it meant to be an Independent Fundamental Baptist.

All of that was about to change...

It all began on January 1, 1999 in Beckley, WV. I had been hired by an IFB pastor who was the pastor of a community church. I was hired as the assistant/youth pastor and couldn't wait to begin my very first job in the ministry. I got there in my suit and tie and looked around with wide-eyed wonder at the pews and the pulpit and was genuinely excited at all of the possibilities and fun that lay ahead. I knew how to dress, how to talk, had the right Bible and I was ready to go. I was called into the pastor's office and the first thing out of his mouth on my first day of work was this: "We cannot be friends. I am the boss and you are my employee. Everybody has to know who the man is around here". My heart sank. I was green and needed a friend. From the 'courting' process that preceded my hiring I had no reason to think that he would be anything other than a friend. My rose colored glasses of the IFB movement were slapped off my face and smashed under his oppressive foot. It was all downhill from that point and it was only the first day. I was worked to death and was told I wasn't working hard enough. I was worn out and had my job threatened. I was dressed down and berated in front of my wife and told never to question the pastor. There were major inconsistencies and something was wrong, but it had to be me because he was the pastor. He was the man of God and I knew I was to never question him or 'touch God's anointed'. I wasn't to question or think, but simply follow or face serious consequences. I was miserable and stuck. The story is long and amazing and I will probably share more later, but the short of it all is that after fourteen months I was done.

Joy and I moved out west to Pasco, WA in March '00 and we started Victory Baptist Church in October of the same year. Fresh off of my eye-opening experience I was determined to start an IFB church, but promised myself that I would never treat people the way that I had been treated. We started an IFB church from top to bottom -- KJV only, hymns only, no pants on women, door-to-door soul-winning, extreme pastoral authority, etc. It was going good by IFB standards, but something wasn't right. I was seeing many people say a prayer but nothing else. Some of them would actually hide when they saw me coming. One day, as I was door-knocking, I realized that I couldn't stand it anymore. Something had to change. Two things happened that changed my life forever. I began to think and I began to ask questions. That's when my presuppositions shattered and God's amazing grace came shining through. God used the good and the horrible to help me see my need of Him and Him alone. My religion died and my relationship with my Rescuer began!

That's our desire for you. Maybe you're beat down and told you aren't working hard enough. Maybe you have questions, but to even ask them would mean rebuke and possibly the loss of your job. Maybe your killing yourself trying to please a pastor who is never placated. We've been there! We've been beat up and had our jobs threatened. We've been worried and scared, but by God's grace we survived and by His grace you will too. We want to let you know that you're not alone. We want to give you a safe haven. This isn't a place to argue, but this is a place of encouragement and safety. This is a place to ask the hard questions without fear of retribution and ridicule. This is a place of hope and healing. This is a place of journey and wonder. This is a place to lift up and glorify our indescribable Savior!

My prayer is that God will make us brave, and that He will grant us the grace to break the chains of legalism and embrace the truth of His full salvation. Once you peek your head out of the box of rigid legalism and see the glorious scene of our Savior that awaits, you will never go back. You will be changed. You will be brave. You will be amazed!

Please don't hesitate to contact us and tell us where you are at on this journey of grace. Maybe you've been down a similar road. Maybe you see the inconsistencies and need some advice. Maybe you just need a friend. Let us know.

In Awe,

Trevor

Tony's Story

2008-04-23T23:29:00.004-04:00

Well, a bit about me. I am a graduate of Crown College, though that's just the end of the odyssey. I spent most of my childhood on the mission fields of Mexico and Italy. When I was not there, I was sampling IFB'dom in America.

Our home church was First Baptist Church, Milford, Ohio - Dr. Charles Keen - Great man! Still the best pastor I have ever had! I spent one year at Longview Baptist Temple - Dr. Bob Gray. I spent my senior year at Cornerstone Baptist Church, Colorado Springs - Dr. Dean Miller (I was kicked out a week before graduation for "rebellion" and actually graduated from Lighthouse Baptist Church's school in Wyoming - Dr. Gary Knouf). My freshman year of Bible College was spent at P.C.C. My sophomore year was spent at Oklahoma Baptist College - Dr. Jim Vineyard. I finished at Crown College, Powell, TN - Dr. Clarence Sexton. I have been at most of the other schools and churches in the movement, many supported our family...West Coast, Golden State, Trinity - Fl, Midwestern, Hyles Anderson, to name some.

Where am I today? I have been pastoring a bilingual church in Vineland, NJ for the past 9 years. I have been on a journey to grasping and living grace and relationship. The Lord has done amazing things in my life! I am not angry or bitter at any of these people or institutions, though I have my share of bad experiences. The Lord used many experiences in my life to bring me to where I am today, and none of it has been wasted. I believe that most of the people in the movement I came from are very sincere and love the Lord. I am grateful for Christ being lifted up in any way shape or form!

Today, I profoundly disagree with many of the tenents of my roots. Though I am technically still a fundamentalist, as I unapologetically stand for the fundamentals of the faith. That term has become so attached to a certain strident and dogmatic strain of Christianity that it makes me a little nervous to use it. I have moved away from Legalism, Arminianism, KJVonlyism, Dispensationalism, Easy-believism, Secondary-separationism (did I just coin a phrase?) and assorted other "isms". I have moved MUCH closer to Christ. I have never been more in love with Him and less impressed with myself than I am today. I started out as a young hot shot determined to Pastor the next "big" church. He has truly broken me and shown me the wickedness, arrogance and idolatry of my heart. Blessed be HIS name! I started out with all of the answers; now I realize more than ever how clueless I am. I praise His name for His mercy in my life. If any of my experiences can be a blessing to you, praise His name!

Purpose for the blog

2008-04-23T18:52:00.002-04:00

Trevor and I have been talking for years about some sort of presence on the internet that could serve as a resource for people walking the long, difficult and sometimes very lonely road away from oppressive pseudo-fundamentalism. This blog is our attempt to do just that. Our mission statement from the first is to lift up Christ, not to tear down any man or institution. Of necessity there will be some difficult issues raised and spoken about on these pages, but we will honestly seek the Lord with all of our hearts to keep a positive, constructive and Christ-honoring tone in all we say. To that end, we are specifically asking those who would simply attack or fight to do so elsewhere. This blog is not geared for the true "believer." If you are fully satisfied where you are, God bless you! We wish you no harm and do not wish to debate you. This blog is for those with questions. There are many questions that simply CANNOT be raised in the Extreme Independant Baptist circles both of us come from. To raise those question is to be "disloyal" or a "rebel" or a "liberal." As Ben Stein points out, questions not adequately answered don't tend to go away. If you're not satisfied with being told to shut up and get back in the box, this blog is a safe place to dialogue, test your ideas, or simply interact with others who have made the journey.

Both of us have struggled through many difficult questions. We do not pretend for a moment to have all the answers; in fact, part of maturing in Christ is coming to the point where you realize you DON'T have all of the answers. Though we have come to certain conclusions in different areas, we do not approach this blog dogmatically, rather seeking to encourage real questions and real thinking. You will probably leave here disagreeing with us, and you know what, outside of the box, that's not a crime! God calls us to use the reasoning faculties He has given us and to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, NOT a man or a movement.

Both of us have experienced something akin to the title of this blog. Early on in the process as you wrestle with difficult questions and feelings in your heart, it's very difficult; but there comes a day when you break out of the box. A day when it fully dawns on you that you CAN think for yourself, that you CAN come to different conclusions than the ones being force fed to you! It's like stepping out of a box and seeing the mountains for the first time. You stare in sheer wide-eyed wonder, and you begin to realize that you have been confined all of this time in a man-made, tradition hardened box, and the whole time you had missed THIS! Our prayer is that you will experience that moment! Our prayer is that your journey will draw you closer to Christ as ours has, not take you to a place of bitterness and anger. Sure, you could focus on the box, it's makers, and keepers and be distraught, or you could focus on the mountains and soak them in, enjoying every single moment of your new found freedom.

Feel free to leave comments or questions. You can do so anonymously if that would be better for you. You can feel free to contact either of us and know that we will gladly be a sounding board for you and keep a confidence. There is a link provided to our forum where you can participate in a wide array of dicussions. May the grace of God keep you and may you rejoice in the liberty with which Christ has made you free! Blessings!

Tony