Where did the arrogance come from?
Over the weekend I attended my baby sister’s high-school graduation in North Carolina. She graduated from a small IFB Christian School. It felt like I traveled back in time as I sat in the auditorium and saw all of the trappings and arrogance I so vividly remember in my nightmares even as it was obvious that the “success” those circles craved eludes this dying church. The auditorium could probably seat 350, yet 40 of us filled out the first five pews to watch the ceremony for the three graduates. When I say watch, that’s what I mean. It was more depressing than a funeral. The service (complete with four guys in suits on the platform) moved along with military precision. One song, announcements, one song, testimony, one special…. You get the idea. Watching the four “men of God” on the platform grimace as we sang “Great is Thy faithfulness” was enough to make me sick to my stomach. I ‘ve observed Catholic services with more life and vigor than these poor people could muster. As the “ensemble” performed their special music the pasted on grin by the woman doing the falsetto stuff was an incredible “joker” impersonation. There was almost a creepiness to the whole service. When my baby sister made her way to the platform I had suffered more than I could take and I broke the silence with a “You go, girl!” She smiled and went on to give her speech. She broke down in tears as she spoke of her parents and I nervously glanced up at the pontiff (pastor) to see if this show of needless emotion would bring some consequence. My sister wrapped up her speech with a couple of lines that didn’t sound like her. She said how “most of all she was grateful for her teachers at the school who had sacrificially lived Christ before her and how she wanted to live her life emulating them.” This struck me a little strange, yet the grin on the pontiff’s face made it clear he enjoyed it very much. When my sister sat down another special was “performed” in perfect pitch and complete deadness, then the pontiff made his way to the pulpit. By the look on his face I knew we were in for something interesting and sure enough… I’ll do my best to produce his words verbatim…
“We are going to maintain proper decorum throughout this service and we ask you to do the same.” (Remember, I’m the only one who has made a peep so far in the service)
Ok, so he’s an uptight jerk… but he didn’t stop. “These graduates have worked hard and they are worthy of your respect” I drop my head in disbelief, there’s a nervousness and tension in the room that brings back floods of memories,,, but the pontiff is not done. “ If you do not have enough respect for your own accomplishments in life to act with decorum I truly pity you, but you should at least be able to respect these graduates and their accomplishments.” As the harsh and completely unnecessary words of this puffed up fool hung over the room I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. He’s obviously used to intimidating people with his cutting words, but I didn’t feel intimidated, I felt incredibly depressed. I’ve been screamed at by Bob Gray, filleted with the atomic bombs that proceed from Jim Vineyard’s mouth, seen the worst offenders in my old circles turn purple as they screamed at me or some other helpless kid, so this puffed up 5’5” wanabee only looked pathetic with his verbal pea-shooter. I was just reminded of all the oppressive fools that I have been around in ministry. I have spent the last two days on a trip down memory lane, and I ask myself this question… “Where did the arrogance come from?” When exactly did “men of God” become arrogant, oppressive, manipulative jerks? When exactly did we begin to excuse such boorish behavior because it was some-how justified by the righteous indignation of the jerk behind the pulpit? Someone please tell me how Christians who love God with all of their hearts would ever tolerate clowns like Phil Kidd or Jim Vineyard without placing them on church discipline for their wickedness? The further I get away from it, the more it blows my mind how Christians will tolerate men who DO NOT display the fruit of the Spirit in positions of Spiritual authority. You and I both know that none of the men on the platform at my sister’s graduation will have the spine to sit down with the “pontiff” and confront him over his behavior. These men are FULLY unaccountable. NO ONE questions them. It’s not ok! WHO DO WE THINK WE ARE???? Where did ANY of us as Pastors/preachers think we got the authority to speak with such condescension towards anyone else? Where exactly did we forget that it’s only grace that allows us to stand? Where did the ARROGANCE come from? God help us!
The buffoon behind the pulpit knew nothing about me. I wasn’t in suit and tie. I could have been an unsaved family member who had been dragged kicking and screaming to a church for someone’s graduation. Yet he felt the need to try to completely humiliate me in front of everyone there. The picture just got worse later as I spoke with my sister. The lines at the end of her speech, the ones about her teachers modeling Jesus and her wanting to emulate them, were put in her speech verbatim by him. Wait, it gets worse…
He taught three of her classes this last year. You read that right.
I’m no better than this man. I’m a hopelessly depraved ego-maniac. I recognize that. I recognize the leanings in my heart to this same thing. I grew up around it. At times, sadly I have even emulated it. It is WICKED, however, and may I never excuse such behavior in my life, even if I fail and act in such a manner. May the preacher of God’s Word be characterized by humility, meekness and gentleness.
Where did the arrogance come from?
Over the weekend I attended my baby sister’s high-school graduation in North Carolina. She graduated from a small IFB Christian School. It felt like I traveled back in time as I sat in the auditorium and saw all of the trappings and arrogance I so vividly remember in my nightmares even as it was obvious that the “success” those circles craved eludes this dying church. The auditorium could probably seat 350, yet 40 of us filled out the first five pews to watch the ceremony for the three graduates. When I say watch, that’s what I mean. It was more depressing than a funeral. The service (complete with four guys in suits on the platform) moved along with military precision. One song, announcements, one song, testimony, one special…. You get the idea. Watching the four “men of God” on the platform grimace as we sang “Great is Thy faithfulness” was enough to make me sick to my stomach. I ‘ve observed Catholic services with more life and vigor than these poor people could muster. As the “ensemble” performed their special music the pasted on grin by the woman doing the falsetto stuff was an incredible “joker” impersonation. There was almost a creepiness to the whole service. When my baby sister made her way to the platform I had suffered more than I could take and I broke the silence with a “You go, girl!” She smiled and went on to give her speech. She broke down in tears as she spoke of her parents and I nervously glanced up at the pontiff (pastor) to see if this show of needless emotion would bring some consequence. My sister wrapped up her speech with a couple of lines that didn’t sound like her. She said how “most of all she was grateful for her teachers at the school who had sacrificially lived Christ before her and how she wanted to live her life emulating them.” This struck me a little strange, yet the grin on the pontiff’s face made it clear he enjoyed it very much. When my sister sat down another special was “performed” in perfect pitch and complete deadness, then the pontiff made his way to the pulpit. By the look on his face I knew we were in for something interesting and sure enough… I’ll do my best to produce his words verbatim…
“We are going to maintain proper decorum throughout this service and we ask you to do the same.” (Remember, I’m the only one who has made a peep so far in the service)
Ok, so he’s an uptight jerk… but he didn’t stop. “These graduates have worked hard and they are worthy of your respect” I drop my head in disbelief, there’s a nervousness and tension in the room that brings back floods of memories,,, but the pontiff is not done. “ If you do not have enough respect for your own accomplishments in life to act with decorum I truly pity you, but you should at least be able to respect these graduates and their accomplishments.” As the harsh and completely unnecessary words of this puffed up fool hung over the room I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. He’s obviously used to intimidating people with his cutting words, but I didn’t feel intimidated, I felt incredibly depressed. I’ve been screamed at by Bob Gray, filleted with the atomic bombs that proceed from Jim Vineyard’s mouth, seen the worst offenders in my old circles turn purple as they screamed at me or some other helpless kid, so this puffed up 5’5” wanabee only looked pathetic with his verbal pea-shooter. I was just reminded of all the oppressive fools that I have been around in ministry. I have spent the last two days on a trip down memory lane, and I ask myself this question… “Where did the arrogance come from?” When exactly did “men of God” become arrogant, oppressive, manipulative jerks? When exactly did we begin to excuse such boorish behavior because it was some-how justified by the righteous indignation of the jerk behind the pulpit? Someone please tell me how Christians who love God with all of their hearts would ever tolerate clowns like Phil Kidd or Jim Vineyard without placing them on church discipline for their wickedness? The further I get away from it, the more it blows my mind how Christians will tolerate men who DO NOT display the fruit of the Spirit in positions of Spiritual authority. You and I both know that none of the men on the platform at my sister’s graduation will have the spine to sit down with the “pontiff” and confront him over his behavior. These men are FULLY unaccountable. NO ONE questions them. It’s not ok! WHO DO WE THINK WE ARE???? Where did ANY of us as Pastors/preachers think we got the authority to speak with such condescension towards anyone else? Where exactly did we forget that it’s only grace that allows us to stand? Where did the ARROGANCE come from? God help us!
The buffoon behind the pulpit knew nothing about me. I wasn’t in suit and tie. I could have been an unsaved family member who had been dragged kicking and screaming to a church for someone’s graduation. Yet he felt the need to try to completely humiliate me in front of everyone there. The picture just got worse later as I spoke with my sister. The lines at the end of her speech, the ones about her teachers modeling Jesus and her wanting to emulate them, were put in her speech verbatim by him. Wait, it gets worse…
He taught three of her classes this last year. You read that right.
I’m no better than this man. I’m a hopelessly depraved ego-maniac. I recognize that. I recognize the leanings in my heart to this same thing. I grew up around it. At times, sadly I have even emulated it. It is WICKED, however, and may I never excuse such behavior in my life, even if I fail and act in such a manner. May the preacher of God’s Word be characterized by humility, meekness and gentleness.
Where did the arrogance come from?
Tony
12 comments:
Where did YOUR arrogance come from?
Hey brave anonymous one, It came from the same place yours does: the fall.
BTW, Tony, I can feel your hurt when reading that story. Remember this however: Hurting people hurt people.
Any of us who have been hurt are so easily vulnerable to hurting others ourselves.
Stories like these are very common. I remember my brother relating such stories from his time at Hyles-Anderson, West Coast, and Golden State. Paul Chappell was especially "gifted" in this type of humiliating, manipulating type of behavior. Here are two stories that I remember well:
The first one involved some of the guys in the men's dorm playing video games (If I remember right the game was DOOM, those who are video game buffs will remember how ground breaking that game was). Paul called a meeting and personally got in my brother's face yelling at him. He proceeded to kick over chairs, etc...all in an attempt to scare and control their behavior.
The second story involved the great wickedness of collarless shirts. Back in the ninties collarless shirts were the fashion rage. My brother was wearing a nice collarless shirt one day around campus. Paul asked my brother where he got the shirt fron and even complemented him that it looked good. About a week later at Saturday evening men's prayer, Paul publicly called him out by name and rebuked him for wearing the shirt. He told him he never wanted to see him wearing those types of shirts again.
These are just two of many, many illustrations of the prideful, power hungry behavior of IFBX pastors. Having been out of the IFBX circles for about 5 years, I have found other pastors in other denominations that have the same issues. The difference is that other groups are more proactive in demanding accountability. I know of one pastor who pastored a large church (1000+) in the San Jose area. The pastor was on the radio and on the surface very successful. He had a temper and anger issues, the elder board forced his resignation over the issue. That pastor got counseling help and is back in the pulpit again having received the assistance he needed. Instead the IFBX movement elevates and promotes these abusive pastors.
Hey Tony. Matt gave me your blog address, and let me say that I have certainly been blessed in what I have read so far! Brother, I feel as though we have lived identical lives, and it seems that we have experienced the same detoxification from the 'fighting fundies'.
As for Mr. anonymous. You should have been at that graduation (as I was). I wanted to take a shower after that ceremony just to wash off all the pompous arrogance that I felt contaminated with!
Tony, I pray that this blog will grow into a brilliant beacon to all those entangled in the snare of man-centered, legalistic, religion and that Christ would once again be lauded as SUPREME in His church.
Anonymous friend...
From my wicked heart. I am ashamed of it. I probably even displayed some in that post. Please pray for me!
Reformer.... :)
Thanks for the thought. I agree with you! I don't think it's so much a personal hurt for me anymore, God has been so gracious. There are some scars that at times get aggravated a little, but God has brought me through a time of healing. I DO hurt for many people I dearly love who are still under dictators. As for hurting people hurting others, that's a danger. God is working on me! I appreciate your prayers!
Pastor Josh...
I agree that these pastors exist in other circles as well. Absolutely there are tons of examples! I could list 1,000 personal examples many MUCH worse than the one lsted here. I believe what makes this more common in IFBX circles is the old "Power corrupts, absolute power absolutely corrupts" statement.
Josh...
That was fast! Glad you found the blog! Man, I enjoyed getting to meet you and all the laughs we had that night at the restaurant over the whole decorum thing. I'm looking forward to getting to know you better.
You're all a bunch of compromisers encouraging each other in your sin. You deserve each other.
hey mr. anonymous, Did Jesus ever speak of love in the Bible?
He did, he also spoke of judgement and all of you wolves in sheep's clothing will soon experience it.
"he also spoke of judgement and all of you wolves in sheep's clothing will soon experience it."
And how are these people compromisers and wolves? Can you please demonstrate where one false doctrine has been taught here?
I just stumbled on to this site, and I have to say there is an agenda here, and it isn't any sort of 'getting the truth out'. It's more of a let's all get together and share our bitterness toward a small number of independent baptist churches and pastors.
I think that you are using a broad brush here, painting independent baptists with said broad brush claiming they are all this or that.
As far as where the arrogance has come from... I asked the same question when I read your post.
You call other men of God, who you say you are not bitter, don't want to argue with or really have anything against "baffoons" or "fools" for the way they do things.
That is childish at best.
The good news is, they will answer to God for their own actions, you won't. You will only answer to God for your own actions.
You really comes across as bitter (and not just in this post, in many I have seen).
Honestly, I will say that reading over the crazy about face that has been taken by many of you on here has caused me to 'search the scriptures daily, weather these things are so'.
I'll be honest, I even gave you the benfit of the doubt, because we don't disagree on how some independent baptists act, I can't condone some of the practices and power that is practiced.
I tried to look at this from your point of view as well as mine.
Good news, I can't find a reason to change. I'll keep my feet firmly grounded where they are.
I've been through the bad independent baptist churches, as well as the good.
I've known humble and meek men of God who have been the best pastors I have ever met and they were (and still are) great preachers too. They were independent baptists and fellowshipped with those who are in the 'movement' as I've seen it called here.
Are there bad ones? Sure.
Do you think they only exist in the 'IFB movement'? No way.
They will exist anywhere there are sinners.
You have taken your bad experiences, found a reason to be critical and tried, through that criticism and bitterness, to 'show them' a thing or two by blogging about it here, or so it seems.
I have to be honest, I've spent time in prayer and my Bible before making my first and only post to this site. I've searched my own heart asked myself and God some tough questions, because it did make me think.
I'll post this anonymously, because I don't want to be a stumbling block to anyone or embed a point of contention or give a dry haystack for the devil to fire his darts at. Also, nothing good can come from a debate on the subject.
But, after further review, I have found far more freedom "in" the box.
God Bless (and I really do mean that)
Hey there anonymous #2 (I'm assuming you're not the same anonymous who has responded already to this post). I guess you could be number three if the prior anonymous posts were different people...
Now that we have that straight...:)
Thank you for your post. I do appreciate it. I regret that this is your "one and only post" and do wonder if that connects you with our friend Kelly who just posted His "one and only" post in answer to Trevor. Whether you are or aren't, I really wonder why this strategy is employed. You get to make the assumptions you want to make, say your piece and then leave. You are free to do so obviously, but I'm just not sure which Biblical principle is being followed with this slash and burn technique. You run in, throw the hand grenade and run out. You seem uninterested in anything but condemnation of us before you run for the exits. I'm truly puzzled about the reasoning. If you are opening your mouth at all, wouldn't you be obliged to follow Biblical principles and engage us as your brothers in Christ?
About the meat of your post. I read it honestly and am seeking to take to heart what you say. What makes it difficult is that you seem to bring an agenda along with your comments as you accuse us of doing. Regardless, I will take from your post an encouragement to be even more careful going forward that we make ourselves clear and place even more disclaimers and clarifying statements in our posts.
Just to clarify that you seem to skip over some of those disclaimers in your judgement of us, I will reproduce some of them here:
First post, Wednesday, April 23rd, 2008
Our mission statement from the first is to lift up Christ, not to tear down any man or institution. Of necessity there will be some difficult issues raised and spoken about on these pages, but we will honestly seek the Lord with all of our hearts to keep a positive, constructive and Christ-honoring tone in all we say. To that end, we are specifically asking those who would simply attack or fight to do so elsewhere. This blog is not geared for the true "believer." If you are fully satisfied where you are, God bless you! We wish you no harm and do not wish to debate you. This blog is for those with questions.
2nd post, April 23rd, 2008
Our home church was First Baptist Church, Milford, Ohio - Dr. Charles Keen - Great man! Still the best pastor I have ever had!
still second post...
I am not angry or bitter at any of these people or institutions, though I have my share of bad experiences. The Lord used many experiences in my life to bring me to where I am today, and none of it has been wasted. I believe that most of the people in the movement I came from are very sincere and love the Lord. I am grateful for Christ being lifted up in any way shape or form!
3rd post, April 24th, 2008
My church was by no means a part of radical fundamentalism and my journey begins many miles and years away from those wonderful people. I thank the Lord, as I look back on my journey of grace, for the wonderful and caring influences that He put in my life (and in many cases still in my life) from Ripley Baptist. I love that church and those people with all my heart, and look forward to being with them when I visit my great hometown.
In 1994 I began attending Crown College (Temple Baptist Church and Dr. Clarence Sexton) and met my future wife, Joy, in 1995. We were married in July of '97 and I graduated in '98 followed by Joy in '99. Crown is where Tony and I first met as roommates in 1995. I was having a great time and met some wonderful people and never even thought to question one tenet of what it meant to be an Independent Fundamental Baptist.
The fourth and fifth sixth and seventh posts are generic in the sense that they are topical and do not broad brush anyone, simply deal with the topics of abusive pastors, Expository preaching and living radically God-centered lives and God's transcending love. No one is attacked and no assumptions are made of anyone.
The seventh, eigth and ninth posts deal with the KJV issue. The first simply details my journey away from a KJO mentality and attacks no one. The next post deals with the argument propogated by some about "poison." At the end of this post I give the following disclaimer:
Note: I do not mean to broad-brush all KJV advocates. I realize there is a wide range and if this does not speak to your position, please disregard it. It very specifically addresses a mentality I spent a lot of time around. If you feel from an examination of the evidence that the KJV is the best translation I have no beef with you. God bless! Please be careful however how you feel about and describe other translations of God’s word.
Likewise, Trevor has an informative post on the KJV issue that ends with this statement:
If you are KJVO, let this be a challenge to prove out your position Scripturally and contextually. If you are starting to question then let this be an encouragement to begin to ask the hard questions and not simply take someone's word on something so important. Most importantly, may we glorify our great God and Savior in how we handle this debate and His precious Word.
Posts 10-12 deal with the slippery slope/freedom in Christ issue. These posts DO handle areas of disagreement and give reasons for changes in our lives, yet even they have very clear statements like the following one:
Examine your motives carefully, however! Have a clean conscience! Move only as prompted by the Holy Spirit. Be humble about the changes. Don’t look down on those who remain where you were. Honestly, this is a serious cause for concern for all of us who have moved away from some of these things! May we not show the same judgmentalism towards those still holding to certain beliefs that we fault them for having towards our liberty in Christ. Let us respect and be gracious to those whom we disagree with! You do NOT have to be where we are to be our cherished brother/sister in Christ! If you would afford us the same sentiment, Christ would most certainly be glorified! God bless you! May we be humble and meek, never rubbing our “freedom” in the face of others. I agree with Trevor's post. I hope this may answer any questions/objections.
Trevor's final post on the subject is written with incredible grace and wisdom. Surely no one, anywhere could be offended by it. Disagree, maybe, offended? I can't see it!
All of this brings us to the 13th post which is the one you have responded to. I have to agree with you that I didn't do a good job of clarifying in this post that ALL of the movement is not like this! For that I AM sorry! I appreciate you pointing that out and I will try to be much more careful going forward. Allow me to rectify that wrong.
The "arrogance" I describe in this post is by NO MEANS the true of every IFB pastor. I know MANY gracious men, as I clarified earlier in the responses to this post, within the "movement." Chief among them is Dr. Charles Keen who I deeply respect and admire. I could give many names but the absence of some prominent ones I may have had some exposure to will only cause problems.
Therefore, for having neglected to clarify in this post that I did not mean to broad-brush the entire movement, I deeply apologize and stand corrected. I never meant to imply that ALL were like this, I was simply asking WHY some are, but I realize I didn't make that clear. My total bad. I do believe that the statements made in this post could be filtered through my prior statements to realize I'm NOT broad-brushing, but believe me, I will learn that lesson.
Having said all that, and realizing that there are "jerks" behind non IFB pulpits as well, I WOULD point out that the IFB system is more prone to abuse in this area because of the way it's set up. It is very easy for the wrong man to take control of a church and run rough shod over members since there are very few built in forms of accountability. Obviously many churches within the movement would be exceptions to this.
The final post to date on this forum is and extremely classy one by Trevor that ends with this:
Let us sound a call for unity that allows for diversity! Let's love one another in spite of our differences and not simply because you agree with me or vice versa. How can we ever learn, discern, or grow if all of us are exactly the same. The beauty of Christianity is the ability to disagree on the peripheral while agreeing on the necessary. May we not compromise that great freedom given to us by our great God and Lord, Jesus Christ.
So, my dear friend, I appreciate you ringing the bell and pointing out my error of omission in this post. I will rectify it and I will learn from my mistake. I would point out that I end the post with the following:
I’m no better than this man. I’m a hopelessly depraved ego-maniac. I recognize that. I recognize the leanings in my heart to this same thing. I grew up around it. At times, sadly I have even emulated it. It is WICKED, however, and may I never excuse such behavior in my life, even if I fail and act in such a manner. May the preacher of God’s Word be characterized by humility, meekness and gentleness.
What can I say. You have mis-judged our hearts, perhaps with a little aid from my incompetence in this post. The broad-brush accusation will never be able to be made again on this blog. Thanks for the help.
As far as your criticism of my arrogance, as posted above, I clearly acknowledge it. The point of the post is that men of God behind a pulpit should ALWAYS reflect the gracious character of Christ, and if they ever fail they should quickly make it right. You agree with that, right?
You acuse me of coming across bitter. I'm sorry. I really am not. If I was, believe me, there would be some pretty incredible stories with names called. I have enough dirt to seriously hurt several "great men" within the movement. I have no desire to do that. Unlike what you suggested, this blog was NOT started for that purpose. Again, if it had been, there would be some incredible bombs being tossed out. You have seriously mis-judged our intentions, friend.
About the final part of your post... If we have encouraged you or ANYONE to think as you said we did, that's all we would want to do. If you read the initial post you would find that our goal NEVER has been to convince someone to leave the movement. We wish you all God's best. If we can ever help you, pray for you or encourage you in ANY way, please let us know! We are here to serve you.
Our goal is to lift up Christ. Our secondary goal is to help and encourage those who may be asking questions and mentally seeking freedom from the oppressive and manipulative parts of the "movement." You seem to acknowledge to some extent that these parts exist, so I'm not sure what the problem is. If you are honoring Christ where you are and know the freedom to follow the Holy Spirit and read your Bible with an open mind, as many good people in IFB churches can, then GOD BLESS YOU!!!! We wish you ALL of the best!!!! Please feel free to post here again and interact with us! We are NOT against you! I thank you very much, again for pointing out my failure in this post. I will work hard to improve. I will also do ALL within my power to make sure I'm not coming across as bitter, because I honestly am not.
Lord, please bless my brother/sister in Christ. Fill him/her with your peace and use them powerfully for Your kingdom! Amen!
Be blessed!
Wow... that one is still in the air! Home run!
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