I have received a few letters the past few days challenging my 'changing' ways. I have been called a compromiser and had my ethics questioned all because of disagreement. Let me clarify a few things...The problem that I see with the few people that have written from an authoritative standpoint concerning my apparent doctrinal error is that it is based on the idea that they are automatically right and anyone who disagrees with them is by default wrong. If there is any disagreement then the one disagreeing with them is automatically wrong and doesn't deserve a Biblical reason for the disputed doctrine. So far I've been called a compromiser, had my ethics questioned, and told I was in blatant doctrinal error. These same people have told me they are telling me these things because they genuinely care about me. Here's the problem: If they care about me so much and I'm in possible doctrinal error, then they should at least take the time to explain to me from a Biblical standpoint why I am in error. They haven't done this. As a matter of fact, when asked to do so they simply refuse. They come in claiming love and genuine concern and then fail to give me a Biblical reason why they believe I'm in error. I can only take from this that it is simply their opinion that I am wrong and, therefore, they lose all authority to make such bold claims. If I'm wrong and you show me Biblically that I am (and by Biblically I mean contextually, not simply pulling a verse here and there to back up wild claims) I will gladly change my position in a heartbeat. My greatest desire in life is to be thoroughly Biblical and I'm learning every single day. But if you just make accusations and cute alliterated jabs about who I am without one single Bible reference, I simply cannot do anything with that. It is not helpful and cannot be taken seriously. If there is going to be reason then reason with Scripture and not with opinion. If one claims that the KJV is absolutely perfect then the burden of proof lies on that person to back up that amazing claim Scripturally. If I claim that the sky is orange then it is not up to you to prove it is blue. The burden of proof would lie on me. If one says that everyone needs to wear a suit and tie or they are not right with God then the burden of proof lies on the one making the claim and not on the one who doesn't.
Let me make this perfectly clear...
I believe in the Trinity, Virgin Birth, the Diety of Jesus Christ, The Atonement, Salvation by grace through faith, The inerrancy of the Bible, the inspiration of Scripture, and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Line that up with anyone throughout history and this position is nothing short of being historically fundamental. If people believe these things then there is absolutely no reason to have disunity or separation without blatant willful and unrepentant sin.
As for KJVO, dogmatic views of eschatology, certain dress standards, music standards, etc. These simply have no place in historical fundamentalism. If you make the bold claims that only certain music is ok and only certain dress is acceptable and only one particular version of the Bible is absolutely perfect, then the burden of proof lies on you to show that your claim is Biblical. The burden of proof does not lie on me to prove why I don't believe these things. If you want to believe these things, I don't have a problem one with that, but don't tell me I'm a compromiser and unethical because I do not. Especially in light of the fact that the claims have not been backed up with one relevant passage of Scripture.
We have not and will not use this blog to tell people they are wrong for believing differently that we do. We realize there are cultural and social considerations for things such as dress and music and preaching style. There are also traditional considerations in many places that must be taken into account. We realize that people are going to do things differently than we do and that is perfectly fine. I don't wear a suit and tie, but there great men of God who do. That doesn't make one of us right and one of us wrong, but rather that makes us different and diverse. We have a contemporary worship style but others do not and they often have strong reasons to do so, but again we don't call each other heretics, we both have hearts crying out to God with different means. When there is difference that doesn't have to mean that there is right and wrong. That is absurd. It simply is what it is: difference. There are certain things that cannot be compromised and we believe in those things with all our hearts and souls. But for all the rest I quote Augustine,
"In necessary things, unity; in doubtful things, liberty; in all things, charity."
Let us sound a call for unity that allows for diversity! Let's love one another in spite of our differences and not simply because you agree with me or vice versa. How can we ever learn, discern, or grow if all of us are exactly the same. The beauty of Christianity is the ability to disagree on the peripheral while agreeing on the necessary. May we not compromise that great freedom given to us by our great God and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Trevor
9 comments:
For whatever it's worth...
I agree wholeheartedly with Trevor's post! We have NO beef with anyone who disagrees with us in peripheral issues. Why would we? The question is why should ANYONE? You can disagree and honor Christ and love each other! When did we become SO narrow minded? Our attempt here is to encourage those who are breaking away (at least mentally) from the rigid dogmaticism of some who DO NOT allow for thinking.
A laughable example is eschatology. I ABSOLUTELY blows my mind how dogmatic people will get on an area that simply is NOT foundational in ANY way! In a recent book on the "fundamentals" one of the main "movement" preachers included the Pre-trib, pre-mill return of Christ as a FUNDAMENTAL of the faith. That is just mind-blowing! Yet many of these same guys LOVE Spurgeon (not to mention hundreds of others) who would laugh in their face. Man, I have NO problem co-existing with someone who buys the eschatology of "Left Behind", in fact I have several in my church. The truth is, the folks in my prior "movement" seldom seem to be able to offer the same flexibility.
It only gets worse when it comes to preferences such as dress or music! What blows my mind is the sheer hypocrisy of some. There is a whole crowd that still hates any kind of CCM while embracing Southern Gospel. That's just amazing to me!!! Ok, your argument can no longer be about the beat/ separation or doctrinal purity in lyrics... what's left? The Southern Gospel guys wear ties??? At least the people that stick to just the piano are exhibiting some consistency! Lord help us to relax and give room for the Holy Spirit to do His job! Man, in an area that scripture does not speak to, if you are fully convinced God wants you to do something, go ahead!!! Praise the Lord! Please allow Him to fully convince me of the same without judging me! The intolerance from some for disagreement in these small areas while keeping our eye on the ball is astonishing. Look, I’m not real smart, but I promise you we’ll be more effective for Christ and show much more of Him to the world around us when we quit quibbling over all this nonsense! I promise you that Christians in jail cells suffering persecution for Christ today are NOT separating with each other an berating each other for differences in eschatology, much less whether their churches dress casual or formal. God forgive us! Perhaps what this country really needs is some serious persecution. Then Christians will be so busy writing letters of encouragement and praying for their dear brothers in Christ in Oregon that they simply wont have time to worry about these issues.
May CHRIST, not man’s silly preferences be lifted up!
good stuff! I absolutely agree with both of you on that. We all will have different preferences based on our understandings of scripture, and how God uses it to sanctify us, but they are not tests of true orthodoxy. There is some really good movement being made in this direction among some fundamentalists and some conservative evangelicals who would not label themselves as fundaementalists. A recent discussion between Mark Dever (SBC) and Mark Minnick (BJU, FBFI)was very refreshing. The two actually talked about their similarities and disagreements with good Christian charity.
Other than the crazy IFB knee jerk reactions of separation, a real understanding of separation must be sorted out and consistently held to. I have recently written about this within the last week on my blog. The fundamentalists need to lighten up a bit and realize that they don't have to isolate themselves to be separatists, and the evangelicals need to get their heads out of the sand and stop ignoring the biblical doctrine of separation and start applying it with charity and discernement.
This will be my only post to this blog. Since Trevor decided to bring our private conversation to this public forum then I guess I can respond publicly as well.
Trevor has a Master's degree in Biblical Studies from Crown College. You know our positions very well and have rejected them. You know the truth and have walked away from it. You're not searching for biblical truth...you enjoy the argument.
I was on your Ordination Counsel and had the responsibility to question your departure from your very own Articles of Faith. You have moved to a compromising position. You have moved into Doctrinal Error and I do question the ethics of receiving mission support from churches that you are attacking on this very blog.
This isn't about me, it's about your change of position. You know our posiiton and the position that you have held for many many years, there is nothing new to tell you.
If you think my questions were mean spirited, then hang on ... I'm one of the nice guys.
Good day and God Bless,
I am Pastor Kelly Snyder, First Baptist Church of Belmont, WV
Hi guys,
This is my very first attempt at "blogging" so bear with me!
I read this blog this afternoon and I must say, I am in complete awe that there are still people in this world that believe the clothes on someone's back to be more valuable than the condition of one's heart. I do not think for one moment that Christ cares what I wear as long as my heart is in the right place. Didnt Christ spend most of his ministry in "street clothes" not in fancy suits? Reading the New Testament, I haven't found anything written where Christ admonished a genuine follower for not wearing a tie (if there is such a passage, please point it out). And aren't we as christians supposed to attempt to emmulate Christ?
Pastor Kelly, I guess I dont fully understand where Trevor is in "Doctrinal Error". Is there a reference in the Bible that you could use, to back up your claim?
Well, thanks for listening... or rather, reading my attempts to state my opinion. I am not a bible scholar, or a pastor, just a girl who loves the Lord with all my heart.
Laurie
Hermiston,OR
Pastor Snyder,
I don't expect an answer here because you said this would be your only post, and that's fine. However, What doctrinal error has Trevor departed to? I know that he seems to endorse CCM music which is not a doctrinal thing unless you want to put it in the doctrine of separation. I'm not defending CCM or Southern Gospel,etc... I disagree alot with how it is performed. Either way, just declaring that he is in error is not enough, proof from scripture is needed.
In fact, it was fundamentalism that taught us to cling to scripture as our final authority and when we do, and find that much of what we have been taught does not, we get in trouble for departing from fundamentalism in favor of the Bible. Is it wrong to change your original beliefs if you find them in error? Is Trevor supposed to be more loyal to Crown College than He is to the Bible?
I'm glad that you're one of the nice guys because those who would "not be nice" will prove their arrogance, pride, lack of love and ungodliness which hallmarks much of fundamentalism as we have experienced it.
I will also add something else:
In my study of the Book of John that I am preaching through, I have found a commonality with fundamentalists and the Pharisees. Jesus always always always referred them back to the scriptures and the proofs of his Messianic fulfilments of prophecy.
The Pharisees always acted like they were interested in the preservation of the law and the honor of God's name, but they would never consider the proof, the scriptures or the arguments that Jesus laid out. They only reacted in anger and hatred. They used their zeal for the law and for the honor of God as a façade for their own unbelief, self interest and jealousy.
I think that fundamentalists in large number use their anger against those different from them as a facade for "contending for the faith" when in reality, what they are contentious about are not truly fundamentals of the faith.
You can usually tell that if a person who is in disagreement with you is interested in the truth or not, when he is willing to investigate the proofs and arguments that are being used against his arguments. If they only respond in anger and they are not willing to look at the proof, then they have another agenda and their evil motives are made very obvious.
Kelly,
I honestly wonder if we're reading the same thing. I looked back over Trevor's posts and I found nothing but respect for the church he came from and I found NO evidence of any church being attacked. Are we truly seeing the same thing? I also re-read Trevor's post and saw a reference to several letters he has received where he did NOT disclose anything private. He simply summarized the general idea of several letters.
Seems to me that in your haste and anger you are not only guilty of slander (saying what is simply and evidently untrue about someone to paint them in a negative light) but also a needless rush to "out" yourself and fight with someone. There was no need for your angry post as Trevor had not mentioned the things you rushed to make public nor did anyone but you know that you were an author of one of several letters he received. You play a nice martyr act, but you were obviously aching for a fight.
Sadly, I know you are correct when you point out that your mean-spiritedness is the "cream of the crop" when it comes to the movement you treasure. I do believe that unintentionally you have done more to prove our point on this blog than 1,000 posts by us could.
I will pray for you, Kelly, and I will also pray that the Lord not bless me with any "friends" like you. A true friend does not act this way over small disagreements, preferences and a tie. I agree with the two posts above and I feel he has done a pretty good job of describing your attitude as displayed in your post.
It is a shame beyond the ability to express that Christians are not able to read their Bibles and listen to the Holy Spirit without checking the interpretation with the " movement." Sadly, much of your movement is no better than the Catholic church. “We’ll do the thinking for you, and don’t you DARE disagree!” This response and attitude is EXACTLY why this blog exists. We believe there are MANY struggling with truth and afraid of this type of "loving" response, not to mention, as you aptly point out, how the brutes (which you seem comfortable with) might act.
Kelly, God bless you! Honestly! I wish the best for you. I pray you will show more grace and concern if a church member ever disagrees with you. Is that allowed? Surely you can still consider Trevor a friend. I think it would please the Lord.
Wow Trevor, you bothered someone with your post. I still remember getting a few different emails through the years, that were similar to the reply from Pastor Kelly. They also make sad. I feel pity for anyone who is so caught up with "rules" that they miss out on relationship with God and others. One of the great joys that I have been able to experience in my new found freedom is friendship. Can I truly say I am your friend if I demand thoughts and actions from you? Conditional friendship is no friendship at all!
Mr Snyder, you stated on Trevor Waybright's webpage, "You have moved
into Doctrinal Error...If you think my questions were mean spirited,
then hang on ... I'm one of the nice guys."
First, what is Trevor hanging on for? This isn't the days of the
inquisition, so I don't think he's worried about people asking him
questions.
Second, I'm not looking for a debate. In fact, I don't even care if
you respond to this email. But as someone who spends much time
talking with Trevor and praying for him, I am surprised to hear that
he has moved into "Doctrinal Error." That is a very harsh accusation
which I personally find offensive.
The Jesus-following, Bible-loving world is much bigger than the small
Independent Baptist world you live in. I would think those of us who
grew up in Ripley would be especially proud and encouraging to Trevor,
as he has left home and worldly comforts to further the Kingdom in a
difficult part of the country without much support. I think you
should reconsider your approach when dealing with him and others who
love God but don't agree with you on all non-essential issues. Satan
is working overtime to thwart God's Kingdom, it's sad when there is
fire also coming from "friends."
John Woodrum
--------------------
Grace Church
1300 Lake Douglas Road
Bainbridge, GA 39819
P - 229.243.0532
F - 229.243.0563
http://gracechurchga.org
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